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Old 04-01-2011, 06:39 AM  
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Originally Posted by johnboy View Post
John887, do you really think that kind of atrocity would occur in 2011?
Absolutely! Or it might be worse and be an indirect attack on people.

Back in the day they had National Guard outside the car plants with machine guns.
I know you won't believe me if I tell you I think the National Guard will gun down innocent citizens, so let me supply you a link so you can hear it from the horse's mouth:


Check it out at the 2min mark.
Rem these guys were NOT authorized to use force, but still had automatic weapons at the ready...does this seem like unwillingness to use them?

Scan the net & YouTube for Police abuse, look at the way people are treated everyday, THEN come back and tell me you don't think "atrocities" can occur after you have seen them happen everyday in our fast becoming police state.

The United States has the HIGHEST incarceration rate in the WORLD!
All you have to do is look & you can see why.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:50 AM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
One flaw in Unions today is a response to a lawsuit the union lost. A POS worker was fired after several warnings and the union agreed the worker was useless.
The bum sued the union for not defending him anyway and won the lawsuit. Now unions feel forced to defend the dead wood and the good employee.

We need a Ombudsman for common sense in our law making process.
As you point out THIS is why EVERYONE thinks Unions are bad.

By LAW, thanks to this, the Union HAS to defend everyone...even someone that does NOT belong to the Union!!
Yes, that's right, if you have a "open" shop with Union & Non-Union employees, they all have to be defended, even if they don't pay dues.

A bad cop gets fired for abuses, the Union HAS to try to get his job back.
And you are right blucher, we need to change the flaws in the system.
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Old 04-01-2011, 07:08 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Yes at one time unions served a great service.. Now they merely try to squeeze as much out of a business as possible. They damage a business' ability to remain competitive.
So your saying that if you belonged to a Union this is what you would do?
Because I belonged to one and we knew better than to ask for more than the company could afford.
And you act like Union employees can not be made to take cuts like people without one. In 1983 we all took a pay cut of a third of our salary, then just three years later in 1986, we took a third cut of our TOTAL WAGE PACKAGE!

BTW China also has a 'state' Union....that WalMart also refuses to recognize.

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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Ask yourself this: "do unions encourage job growth, or business growth?"
They encourage job growth actually.
I doubt that you would believe me, because of the angle you are looking at this...and I do see what you are saying...that because Unions get better wages that the company loses the ability to hire more people.
But what you don't understand is that the Union ALSO wants more people hired, and will actually negotiate with the company to hire more people instead of working the employees they have overtime.
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Old 04-01-2011, 07:17 AM  
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Originally Posted by John887 View Post
As you point out THIS is why EVERYONE thinks Unions are bad.

By LAW, thanks to this, the Union HAS to defend everyone...even someone that does NOT belong to the Union!!
Yes, that's right, if you have a "open" shop with Union & Non-Union employees, they all have to be defended, even if they don't pay dues.

A bad cop gets fired for abuses, the Union HAS to try to get his job back.
And you are right blucher, we need to change the flaws in the system.
I can tell you first hand that that is NOT necessarily true. I worked at an "open" shop and was not a union member. I guess I have to explain:

On the line I was working, there was an "A" and a "B" pressman. I was a "B" pressman. There was a Union member who was promoted to an "A" pressman.
In the Union rules, you have 3 months to be either demoted back to "B" pressman or you can ask for your old position. After the three months (sort of a probation I guess) if you didn't cut it, you couldn't just default back to your old position. Well, guess what..... after about 6-8 months, he made some bad product or something and "couldn't cut it" I guess. He was demoted back to "B" (remember, against the union rules) and now there was one too many "B" pressman. I will just let you guess what happened from there...... I'm willing to bet the scenario would have been a little different had I been a member.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that I wasn't a union member so I guess I cannot expect all the protections. I was a little miffed that they broke their own rules. I am glad to be out of that place. I could feel my work ethic being sucked right out of me (because work ethics didn't get you anywhere in a union shop).
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:10 PM  
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I could feel my work ethic being sucked right out of me (because work ethics didn't get you anywhere in a union shop).

From the standpoint of protecting workers from toxic chemicals a union is irreplaceable.

From the perspective of how unions end up defending dead wood they're a disaster but not of their own choosing.

I'd think a company - union relationship needs some rethinking to serve all those affected. I've wondered if it couldn't be structured with a sort of omsbudsman empowered to step in when either or both sides lose sight of shared goals.
Union members are just as affected as the shareholders if a company fails. It's in the real worker's benefit if some guy who wants to spend his shift sleeping in a hidey hole gets the axe.

Protect workers but not the lazy or shiftless. This should never be an adversarial relationship.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:55 AM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
From the standpoint of protecting workers from toxic chemicals a union is irreplaceable.

From the perspective of how unions end up defending dead wood they're a disaster but not of their own choosing.
Your points are well taken... Unfortunately the union members vote on these things and there's only one way for the lazy folks to end up protected... They have to make up most of the votes. It is a similar shift we have been seeing in this country. Anyway.....

I saw many things at that place that left a sour taste in my mouth. Seniority meant everything. Work meant nothing. If you were a good worker and did everything you were asked, you were given more work. That's all. We had a supervisor (younger guy) who started posting charts indicating the production numbers of each product line. The old timers were then out to get this guy (apparently posting performance was a big no no).. Noone wanted those numbers posted. It showed the honest truth of who was getting more work done. It wasn't the "more experienced" workers. I feel that these older gentlemen had long since had their work ethic sucked right out of them.
If this is what a union is, and everything in this country was unionized, then where do you think this country would be?
Yeah, perhaps if the "laziness" factor were eliminated unions could serve a more honorable role in the workplace. The problems that I saw were enough to eliminate them until there was clear EVIDENCE that the "problems" wouldn't come back.

Oh, and where I work now, we are one of the safest places around (non union). As a matter of fact, some of the stuff is ridiculous. The incentive is the expense of liability, and probably the OSHA fines. (I am aware that if it werent for the earlier unions, there likely would be no OSHA).
I just think that the Unions have far outlived their usefulness.
Oh, and we also have charts posted everywhere displaying performance of shifts, and department...
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:30 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I can tell you first hand that that is NOT necessarily true. He was demoted back to "B" (remember, against the union rules) I could feel my work ethic being sucked right out of me (because work ethics didn't get you anywhere in a union shop).

It' called corruption, and it's EVERYWHERE, not just at your job...even our union had a few incidents like that. (Union President's son gets a job that was bid six months before.)
And if you scan the net you'll see plenty in our government!!

Don't say work ethics get you no where, the bosses aren't stupid, they know who is who in the shop.

A superintendent was on my boss's butt about a piece of machinery being down, (because of their own stupidity), and I busted my butt to get it done before shift startup, so he could tell the super that he was waiting on them.
From then on I could do no wrong! LoL
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:52 AM  
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Greenville, SC
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Coruption is everywhere. I just think that the Unions tie the hands of the management to effectively do anything about slackers, or provide incentive for more work. I don't mean more time at work, I mean WORK. Perhaps this isn't the norm with union shops (). This shop was "Teamsters" union. Oh, and where I work now, things aren't perfect but WAY better than at a union shop as far as fairness and incentive for performance.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:11 AM  
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Unfortunately the union members vote on these things and there's only one way for the lazy folks to end up protected... They have to make up most of the votes.
I was IBEW. We voted on officers when the time came but never voted on individual cases nor even knew about them unless the worker said something.

I asked why the union represented a hooker who took the job just for the benefits. She would sleep her entire shift so she was fresh for her real job at 11:30 PM. A union rep. explained about a Post Office worker who was fired but successfully sued the union for not helping him.

To me it seems stupid that companies & unions haven't been able to work around this.

The weakness of unions is the lazy people who abuse a union created to give them a voice. It's flawed but necessary as long as companies put the Almighty Dollar above a person's health. The people you put our faith in brought you the present recession born of their greed. I prefer retaining a voice for the worker too.

I should add that after 2 years the hooker was fired after being busted for prostitution. The union & the company were delighted.
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:09 AM  
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Rockford, IL
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We need less government, cops that care more, less stupid laws, and more freedoms. 100% Yes.

My son works at a non union shop. The company is a multi billion dollar company. In his department there are 25 workers. He is the 2nd most productive worker there, he surpasses quota every day. The bottom 10 workers never have made quota. The pay is the same for everyone and the better workers get taken advantage of. If they come in not feeling the best and don't meet their everyday performance but still is in the top 10 they get a talking to. The bottom 10 they just know that they wont do any better.
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