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Old 11-11-2010, 09:36 PM  
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I know China has all the reasons to be angry. But one for one, they pretty much answer us. They held military exercises with Australia, typically a close ally of the US, last month IIRC, as a sort of retaliatory show of force.

I'm still leaning to the side of 35 miles off the coast is wayyyy too close to be making some sort of demonstration. Our demonstration with South Korea was not only aimed at North Korea, it was also 500km (about 310 miles) outside of Beijing. So if this is a "retaliatory show of force", it was a stupidly over-aggressive one. China's crazy, but I don't think that they're also morons.
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Old 11-12-2010, 07:47 AM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
I know China has all the reasons to be angry. But one for one, they pretty much answer us. They held military exercises with Australia, typically a close ally of the US, last month IIRC, as a sort of retaliatory show of force.

I'm still leaning to the side of 35 miles off the coast is wayyyy too close to be making some sort of demonstration. Our demonstration with South Korea was not only aimed at North Korea, it was also 500km (about 310 miles) outside of Beijing. So if this is a "retaliatory show of force", it was a stupidly over-aggressive one. China's crazy, but I don't think that they're also morons.
Agreed. I suspect that China is playing a high stakes poker game and; if called out, will back down. Why I say that if things started flying-----------China would be destroyed in short order even if they were to do some damage to the USA.
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:47 AM  
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The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Mail Online
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:55 AM  
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Agreed. I suspect that China is playing a high stakes poker game and; if called out, will back down. Why I say that if things started flying-----------China would be destroyed in short order even if they were to do some damage to the USA.
Had that sub been what I think is....that launch..X3...and we would have lost San Diego, LA, and Seattle in all of 3 minutes. 12 million dead, US crippled.

So how would China back down? under a volley of ICBMs?

The rest of the world sees us as weak, O has seen to that, he made it very clear, and does so daily to the world, with his appologies.

We, you, us, the lame prey, the lions have circled. Don't be so polyanna.
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Old 11-12-2010, 04:23 PM  
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This is one of my favorite arguments to tear apart. Let me tell you why that Chinese sub was completely mis-reported.

- The location of the USS Kitty Hawk (the carrier the sub showed up around) was undisclosed, but was proven to be in the area of Okinawa

- The Chinese sub that surfaced was a Type 039 and is two full generations behind American submarines

- It surfaced 5 miles away from the USS Kitty Hawk, and it is suspected that it was a test of Chinese submarines to be able to stalk a US Carrier in a time of peace, which obviously failed

- We completely had our defenses down, submarine-wise. The US exercise did not involve any type of anti-submarine warfare, so our level of awareness to submarines was trusting, and at 0

- The type 039 submarine's maximum distance for strike is 80km, or about 50 miles. The submarine was approximately 10,520 km, or 6,537 miles from the US coast - not exactly within striking range


So was it surprising? Definitely. We didn't think China would pop up like that - we were in a trusting position, and definitely won't be caught like that again. But was it dangerous, or could it have "crippled the US"? That's laughable.

I agree that President Obama's demeanor and constant apologies have made us appear weak in the world's eyes - I don't know if anyone would argue against that. But militarily I don't think that anyone really doubts our power. I wish we didn't have to rely on our military to keep our world position, but right now, a lot of people aren't happy with the US - and, unfortunately, I don't know if that's going to change in the near future.

But let's not give China too much credit.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:26 PM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
This is one of my favorite arguments to tear apart. Let me tell you why that Chinese sub was completely mis-reported.

- The location of the USS Kitty Hawk (the carrier the sub showed up around) was undisclosed, but was proven to be in the area of Okinawa

- The Chinese sub that surfaced was a Type 039 and is two full generations behind American submarines

- It surfaced 5 miles away from the USS Kitty Hawk, and it is suspected that it was a test of Chinese submarines to be able to stalk a US Carrier in a time of peace, which obviously failed

- We completely had our defenses down, submarine-wise. The US exercise did not involve any type of anti-submarine warfare, so our level of awareness to submarines was trusting, and at 0

- The type 039 submarine's maximum distance for strike is 80km, or about 50 miles. The submarine was approximately 10,520 km, or 6,537 miles from the US coast - not exactly within striking range


So was it surprising? Definitely. We didn't think China would pop up like that - we were in a trusting position, and definitely won't be caught like that again. But was it dangerous, or could it have "crippled the US"? That's laughable.

I agree that President Obama's demeanor and constant apologies have made us appear weak in the world's eyes - I don't know if anyone would argue against that. But militarily I don't think that anyone really doubts our power. I wish we didn't have to rely on our military to keep our world position, but right now, a lot of people aren't happy with the US - and, unfortunately, I don't know if that's going to change in the near future.

But let's not give China too much credit.

As a mil man, you must know that it is when your defenses are down you will be killed, 'trust' is not a defensive postition.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:30 PM  
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Originally Posted by jacko View Post
Had that sub been what I think is....that launch..X3...and we would have lost San Diego, LA, and Seattle in all of 3 minutes. 12 million dead, US crippled.

So how would China back down? under a volley of ICBMs?

The rest of the world sees us as weak, O has seen to that, he made it very clear, and does so daily to the world, with his appologies.

We, you, us, the lame prey, the lions have circled. Don't be so polyanna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
This is one of my favorite arguments to tear apart. Let me tell you why that Chinese sub was completely mis-reported.

- The location of the USS Kitty Hawk (the carrier the sub showed up around) was undisclosed, but was proven to be in the area of Okinawa

- The Chinese sub that surfaced was a Type 039 and is two full generations behind American submarines

- It surfaced 5 miles away from the USS Kitty Hawk, and it is suspected that it was a test of Chinese submarines to be able to stalk a US Carrier in a time of peace, which obviously failed

- We completely had our defenses down, submarine-wise. The US exercise did not involve any type of anti-submarine warfare, so our level of awareness to submarines was trusting, and at 0

- The type 039 submarine's maximum distance for strike is 80km, or about 50 miles. The submarine was approximately 10,520 km, or 6,537 miles from the US coast - not exactly within striking range


So was it surprising? Definitely. We didn't think China would pop up like that - we were in a trusting position, and definitely won't be caught like that again. But was it dangerous, or could it have "crippled the US"? That's laughable.

I agree that President Obama's demeanor and constant apologies have made us appear weak in the world's eyes - I don't know if anyone would argue against that. But militarily I don't think that anyone really doubts our power. I wish we didn't have to rely on our military to keep our world position, but right now, a lot of people aren't happy with the US - and, unfortunately, I don't know if that's going to change in the near future.

But let's not give China too much credit.
As Jake7 stated.

Too; of China were to attempt as jacko described, I can safely say that Beijing as well as the Three Gorges Dam would all be annihilated by ICBM's as well as long range bombers---------for starters. In other words; China would be so severely damaged that it would regret ever attacking the USA.

Besides: I am quite sure that the USA has 'nasty toys' close to China, just in case.
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:54 PM  
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We definitely should've had our defenses up - I don't deny that. It was embarrassing. The two subs that were guarding the aircraft carrier were forward preparing for exercise.

But in the position and status we were in, pretty much anyone could've tailed us with a sub. They could've taken out the carrier most likely, but wouldn't have gotten much more, and that would've started another war.

With their weapons, aircraft - pretty much everything being about two generations behind us, I don't think that'd be in their best interest. They're still approximately 3 years away from even having their first aircraft carrier.

My guess is that sub was tailing the carrier to gain intel on American carrier movements, had a problem, and had to surface - often this report is used to make China sound superior, but in reality it's a great example of how militarily inept they are.
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