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Old 07-28-2011, 12:57 PM  
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Originally Posted by MRB View Post
So were talking about 42" wide doors and isles, ramps, grab bars, toilets with enough space for wheel chair use, etc.. Also extra specially trained teachers and programs for said special need students.

If so...... How did it work out prior to 1970 where one of the graphs here starts?

Are their more special need students per capita now than there was prior to 1970?
absolutely, with the bulk of the costs being staff and financial assistance, with any disability including autism/migraine headaches etc you can get partial or in some cases full funding for college from the state.





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In per-pupil terms, total spending used to educate the average student with a disability was an estimated $12,639. This amount includes $8,080 per pupil on special education services, $4,394 per pupil on regular education services and $165 per pupil on services from other federal, special needs programs. The total including only the regular and special education services amounts to $12,474 per pupil.24




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Old 07-28-2011, 01:13 PM  
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So what time period is this graph showing? Is it showing the entire time period of expenditure growth? Just show me a chart where the expenses stay stable over a length of time (any period of time). The charts that show time are showing a steady uptrend beginning well before all the special needs funding.
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:25 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
A few things here....






These first three charts look rather dramatic, don't they? The first two charts would seem to imply that students aren't getting any better at reading, math, or science, despite skyrocketing education costs. The third suggests that education expenses are skyrocketing past the prices of tangible goods. They seem to suggest that the education is becoming less and less efficient. They would suggest that if you stole a kid from 1970, brought him forward to today, put him in a class, that he would do just as well now than he did then.

And in math, science, and reading, that might be true. (On the other hand, it might not - standardized tests are typically normalized during their development so that a certain percentage of students will pass them every time they are taken. If the average student is consistently improving, the tests will need to become more and more difficult to remain normalized. But I digress...)

What's also true is that this kid would be sorely lacking in the basic skills expected of students today. For one big example, he would not have the knowledge or skill required to effectively use a computer.

These first three charts show the cost of education, but they don't indicate the volume of knowledge that was imparted on students. Any school that successfully teaches math, science, and reading would maintain math, science, and reading scores. But a school that teaches *only* those three subjects and only to the testing standard is going to be far less expensive to operate than one that also teaches health, social studies, foreign languages, home economics, shop, automotive, driver's ed, and any math, science, or reading classes that exceed the testing standard.

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These 4th and 5th graphs also suggest inefficiency. But there's nothing here to show how much knowledge is being imparted on children, and how that has changed since 1970.
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This 6th chart continues the trend of trying to show inefficiency. But, it ignores that public schools are required to take in all kids, no matter how expensive it may be to teach them. (I know of no private school that offers bus services to its students; every public school district I've ever heard of offers at least partial bus services.

There's been a bit of a conversation about special needs students. I know of no private school in my area that offers a true automotive program, for example.
[quote]

Gotta run - I'll critique the others when I get a chance.
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:29 PM  
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What is the population number of special need students in the U.S.?

What is the population number on non special need or regular students in the U.S.?
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:31 PM  
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the Education for All Handicapped Children's Act was in 1975, the graph below the one you quoted starts 1977, given the length of time between a law is enacted and the costs start to show I think 2 years is valid.

what are you considering to be that of special needs funding?

also note that I am in no way suggesting or was trying to suggest a 1:1 relationship which you seem to want to pretend I am, this is but a piece of the puzzle. There are other expenses like laws/requirements that limit when schools can expell a student, the school system I went to actually had a completely separate school in the area just to house the students who got in-school or were otherwise unfit behavior wise to attend the regular school. And then of course the pension costs and exploding healthcare costs due to the u.s. lacking a decent healthcare system.

but back to the main point about the DOE, does anyone have any information on how their money is actually used, what goes towards what?
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:34 PM  
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Originally Posted by MRB View Post
What is the population number of special need students in the U.S.?

What is the population number on non special need or regular students in the U.S.?
according to:
Special education in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

roughly about 5 million students in the U.S. with some form of special needs
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:42 PM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
according to:
Special education in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

roughly about 5 million students in the U.S. with some form of special needs
O.K...... How many without any special needs?
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:08 PM  
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Originally Posted by MRB View Post
O.K...... How many without any special needs?
Let me google that for you.
i would recommend taking the total number and subtracting the special education count of students to get your answer
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Old 07-28-2011, 07:42 PM  
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O.K..... So combined primary and secondary education adds up to 64 million students. I won't count post secondary students which are 17.5 million. Now lets back out the 5 million students with special needs and we have a net count of 59 million students that dont have special needs.

We've spent 50 billion on 5 million students and 27.3 billion on 59 million students?

The way I see it theres definately something going on here that doesn't add up or shouldn't add up.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:33 AM  
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Found this to be interesting..


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