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Old 10-13-2010, 07:46 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldognewtrick View Post
Please explain how hetrosexuals flaunt their being strait? Why does sexuality have to be an issue in the first place? Don't people join the armed forces to serve their country not for dating or mating?
you dont join for dating or mating, but when your around people of the opposite sex that share common intrests as yourself, well ya know....
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:38 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepcache View Post
i was refering to living by the moral teachings of the old testament as a Christian, not an American.



Have you been through basic? do you understand why things aren't co-ed?
Wasn't necessarily directed at you.

And no, I haven't served.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldognewtrick View Post
Please explain how hetrosexuals flaunt their being strait? Why does sexuality have to be an issue in the first place? Don't people join the armed forces to serve their country not for dating or mating?
How often do soldiers talk to each other about a girl back home, girls they've dated, going to strip clubs on leave, how hot a certain celebrity is, ect?

We're not talking about big gay Al prancing around hitting on ever guy he sees here, we're talking about little every day stuff, behavior that you'd expect out of any straight person in the military, that could ruin the career of a perfectly good person and soldier who wants to do nothing more than serve his or her country for no reason other than discrimination.

There was a stigma about blacks being in the military and they worked out fine, same with women, and now gays. If someone wants to serve their country they should be able to regardless of their sexual orientation.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:32 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post
Last time I checked we were a secular nation and guaranteed a separation of church and state. Religious opinions either way are a non issue in regards to DADT.

As for the "it'll make troops uneasy" argument, tough. Homophobia and prejudice aren't grounds to deny homosexuals the right to serve openly as a heterosexual would. By that reasoning would it be ok to have segregated units because some troops are racist?
We are guaranteed that the church wont run the country by itself. The laws that the original fathers made were based on christian beliefs. You can see that in the writing and the language used.

But that's not what this thread is about. What makes you think the military isn't segregated? Have you ever served? The solders segregate themselves by likes and dislikes. And they fight between each other just like any group of people. The difference is gay people when left to their own SHOVE it down every ones face. Most people don't care if a person is gay. But when you have an open gay male prancing around acting like a queen it rubs guys wrong. That will happen and bad things will happen. If only one person gets hurt repealing DADT failed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldognewtrick View Post
Please explain how hetrosexuals flaunt their being strait? Why does sexuality have to be an issue in the first place? Don't people join the armed forces to serve their country not for dating or mating?
Please don't try to act like being gay is no different the being strait.

As a strait male I wouldn't want to be stuck in combat with people that acted or talked about their PRIDE.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:36 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post
Wasn't necessarily directed at you.

And no, I haven't served.



How often do soldiers talk to each other about a girl back home, girls they've dated, going to strip clubs on leave, how hot a certain celebrity is, ect?

We're not talking about big gay Al prancing around hitting on ever guy he sees here, we're talking about little every day stuff, behavior that you'd expect out of any straight person in the military, that could ruin the career of a perfectly good person and soldier who wants to do nothing more than serve his or her country for no reason other than discrimination.

There was a stigma about blacks being in the military and they worked out fine, same with women, and now gays. If someone wants to serve their country they should be able to regardless of their sexual orientation.
Have you ever played football?
There is always that group of diehard guys or girls that are the hard ALPHA people and in the military it's 100% worse the football. They wont take well to this.
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:08 PM  
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They're doing a one year study right now on how it'd affect the troops if this thing was repealed. I'll be excited to see what the findings of that are.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:24 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
We are guaranteed that the church wont run the country by itself. The laws that the original fathers made were based on christian beliefs. You can see that in the writing and the language used.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
Ie. No laws in regards to religion. The government is supposed to be 100% secular without any religious influence. It couldn't be more simple and clear and it's well documented that several of the founding fathers were atheist or agnostic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
But that's not what this thread is about. What makes you think the military isn't segregated? Have you ever served? The solders segregate themselves by likes and dislikes. And they fight between each other just like any group of people. The difference is gay people when left to their own SHOVE it down every ones face. Most people don't care if a person is gay. But when you have an open gay male prancing around acting like a queen it rubs guys wrong. That will happen and bad things will happen. If only one person gets hurt repealing DADT failed.
Again, just because they don't like it doesn't make it right or legal. This is no different than a straight man being inappropriate with a female soldier and should be dealt with the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
Please don't try to act like being gay is no different the being strait.

As a strait male I wouldn't want to be stuck in combat with people that acted or talked about their PRIDE.
Right, because all gay people act like that.

Stop perpetuating stereotypes. Do you actually know any gay people? Most don't fit that stereotype and you'd be shocked by how many hate gay people who do act like that. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior regardless of sexual preference.

We're talking about not ruining the career of someone who accidentally talks about their partner, who accidentally lets someone else see a picture of their partner, ect.

If you're not going to repeal it at least extend it to cover all military personnel and don't let anyone in the military be open about their sexual preference, relationships, ect.



Fwiw I find the idea of homosexuality disgusting and wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that these people deserve the same rights and opportunities as everyone else.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:50 AM  
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Originally Posted by Motorcharge View Post
Fwiw I find the idea of homosexuality disgusting and wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that these people deserve the same rights and opportunities as everyone else.
Motorcharge, I agree with you 100%, my problem is why do we have to make such an issue out of this. If some straight male always threw it in my face what he and his female companion did behind closed doors I would have the same feelings of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Keep your private life private. If someone wants to boink spider monkeys and the monkey consents, close the bedroom door and take it up on judgement day, it's between you and the creator, if you believe in one. It's not my place to judge.

It's just to much drama.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:00 AM  
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Here is a good peace on the Separation of Church and State. I think it does a great job of explaining it.
Separation Of Church And State

“Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution.”

Yes I do know several gay people! Yes I hang out with a few and yes we have the same conversations. But I only hang out with people that are willing to discuss issues and look for ways to accommodate both sides.

The military does have rules regarding sex between hetro solders. There are rules on who, what, when, and where for both enlisted and officers. You have to remember that being in the military is nothing like civilian life. There are reasons why the rule was put in place to begin with. You can’t just up an quit your job because you don’t like what you do or who you work with. Once you join that is your life for that contract period.
This is where the problem of an open gay member can and does cause problems. DADT was a compromise between hetro and homosexuals. It allowed them to serve but not in a way that would create an issue.

Stereotypes are a part of life. You cannot take them out of the situation just like you can’t say all men are equal. We may want that, but in reality that will never happen. Utopia is not a real place! Just like people in the North think people from the South are dumb hillbillies or City folk are smarter then country folk or that the immigration problem is just because of Mexicans. Neither of these can be farther from the truth. There is a reason why I and many many others stereotype gays, tattooed people, bikers, felons and so on. For the most part we are justified in doing so.
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:24 PM  
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The idea of separation of church of state was created primarily only to prevent violent persecution - people just misinterpret it.

John Adams: June 28, 1813

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

Dec 27, 1816

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men. . . . The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart (Letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, December 27, 1816).


Sam Adams:

In his 1772 work, The Rights of the Colonists, Adams wrote:

II. The Rights of the Colonists as Christians.

The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty...The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutions of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

In his Last Will and Testament he wrote:

Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins.


Benjamin Franklin:

Franklin certainly believed in the providence of God. In his famous speech to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on June 28, 1787:

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men... If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by him, is it probable an empire could arise without his aid? I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building not better than the builders of Babel.





That last one's probably my favorite because he's trying to remind us that once America loses its founding principles, on Christianity, is when we're going to become just as successful as the builders of the towel of Babel.

I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that our country wasn't founded on Christian principles.
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Old 10-14-2010, 04:35 PM  
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You can quote founding fathers all you like, but look at who actually wrote the First amendment, James Madison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Madison in a letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819
The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Madison Detached Memoranda, circa 1820
Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston - July 10 1822
Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together.
Heck, Madison's own summary of the First amendment blatantly says to keep Government and religion totally separate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Madison - Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15, 1789 pages 730-731
Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform.

Fact is the person who wrote the darn thing did so to keep Religious and Political matters completely separate from each other. I'm not saying we weren't founded partly on Christian principles, but it doesn't change the fact that religion should have absolutely no bearing on Government whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
Yes I do know several gay people! Yes I hang out with a few and yes we have the same conversations. But I only hang out with people that are willing to discuss issues and look for ways to accommodate both sides.
And how many of them act like the stereotype you're portraying all gay people as? The majority of gay people you'd never even know were gay unless they told you. Acting like the stereotype you're portraying doesn't make them gay and being gay doesn't mean they act like that. Acting like that in and of itself isn't appropriate for the military and should be dealt with accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
The military does have rules regarding sex between hetro solders. There are rules on who, what, when, and where for both enlisted and officers. You have to remember that being in the military is nothing like civilian life. There are reasons why the rule was put in place to begin with. You can’t just up an quit your job because you don’t like what you do or who you work with. Once you join that is your life for that contract period. This is where the problem of an open gay member can and does cause problems. DADT was a compromise between hetro and homosexuals. It allowed them to serve but not in a way that would create an issue.
Sounds a lot like segregation to me. Pretty sure the SCOTUS ruled separate but equal wasn't equal at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
Stereotypes are a part of life. You cannot take them out of the situation just like you can’t say all men are equal. We may want that, but in reality that will never happen. Utopia is not a real place! Just like people in the North think people from the South are dumb hillbillies or City folk are smarter then country folk or that the immigration problem is just because of Mexicans. Neither of these can be farther from the truth. There is a reason why I and many many others stereotype gays, tattooed people, bikers, felons and so on. For the most part we are justified in doing so.
Doesn't change the fact that you're judging many by the actions of few. So by this rational should we not let blacks in the military because all black people are lazy and criminals?
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