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Old 06-13-2011, 12:52 AM  
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This right here invalidated the entire survey...

"According to a 2009 survey of drug use in Amsterdam carried out by the Jellinek institute for addiction care among 266 coffee shop visitors, 94 percent of respondents admitted having used cannabis during the previous month.....

Any survey can be manipulated. Have you spoken to anyone who has visited recently? I have, and they all tell of horrid conditions which is no longer a safe place to visit.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:18 AM  
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
This right here invalidated the entire survey...

"According to a 2009 survey of drug use in Amsterdam carried out by the Jellinek institute for addiction care among 266 coffee shop visitors, 94 percent of respondents admitted having used cannabis during the previous month.....

Any survey can be manipulated. Have you spoken to anyone who has visited recently? I have, and they all tell of horrid conditions which is no longer a safe place to visit.
So, are we supposed to accept your anecdotal, qualitative evidence over the survey results?

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Old 06-13-2011, 06:24 AM  
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
If legalization was the answer, they why has Amsterdam failed so badly?
Thats because its not 'true' legalization in Amsterdam. Yes, people can 'legally' go into these coffee shops and get whatever - but where to the coffee shops get it?

You guessed it - the black market. As long as you have this sort of criminal element involved with it you are going to have problems.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:25 AM  
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That is a valid point.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:34 AM  
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The powers-that-be have so stigmatized hemp (I believe this is because hemp would monetarily effect so many industries) that people ARE afraid of it. They say things like "I don't want people driving around stoned", when some people ARE driving around stoned, legal or not. People are driving around drunk too, and we have laws in place to deal with THAT. And there are people driving around "stoned" on legal Zanax, Vicodin, Fentinyl (sp?),
Flexeril, etc., I ought to know since I am or have been on all of these drugs with no driving restrictions, and I can tell you they DO mess you up.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:22 PM  
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Bart Simpson, Phillip Fry, Stewie Griffin, Peter Venkman, John Yossarian, Bugs Bunny, Malcolm Reynolds, Angus MacGuyver, Pinocchio, Jiminy Crickett, Mary Poppins, Stan Smith, Spider Pig, Optimus Prime, Supreme Commander Thor, and the "Yo Quiero" chihuahua.
Rick Steed did Amsterdam just the other week. He toured the drug cafes and found them unique and a bit charming. I'm not aware of a failure. Argentina legalized soft drugs about three months ago without even a hiccup.

Even if there are kinks to work out it's far better than having the country overrun with drugs. The drug war fosters the drug culture. Now Mexican cartels are adding armored vehicles to their arsenals. Since when does common gutter slime wage war on a country with impunity?

We needs "feels good" legislation that is made of FAIL like we need another Great Depression.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:29 PM  
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
This right here invalidated the entire survey...

"According to a 2009 survey of drug use in Amsterdam carried out by the Jellinek institute for addiction care among 266 coffee shop visitors, 94 percent of respondents admitted having used cannabis during the previous month.....

Any survey can be manipulated. Have you spoken to anyone who has visited recently? I have, and they all tell of horrid conditions which is no longer a safe place to visit.
I have friends there and they say they have similar areas in cities where crime is more prevalent just like the US. They never said anything resembling what you contend.

(1997-1999) "The figures for cannabis use among the general population reveal the same pictures. The Netherlands does not differ greatly from other European countries. In contrast, a comparison with the US shows a striking difference in this area: 32.9% of Americans aged 12 and above have experience with cannabis and 5.1% have used in the past month. These figures are twice as high as those in the Netherlands."
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:38 PM  
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Originally Posted by opheucus View Post
The powers-that-be have so stigmatized hemp (I believe this is because hemp would monetarily effect so many industries) that people ARE afraid of it. They say things like "I don't want people driving around stoned", when some people ARE driving around stoned, legal or not. People are driving around drunk too, and we have laws in place to deal with THAT. And there are people driving around "stoned" on legal Zanax, Vicodin, Fentinyl (sp?),
Flexeril, etc., I ought to know since I am or have been on all of these drugs with no driving restrictions, and I can tell you they DO mess you up.
I'm sensing a reluctance to admit the drugwar failed but I'm almost positive we all want less or no drug crime, kids kept away from drugs and the outrageous costs of a failed drugwar reduced or eliminated.

Yes Havasu, things get manipulated but if you do the research a few facts become obvious.

1.Drug Wars fuel drug profits rather than reduce drug use.
2. We are not only losing a drug war dating back to the "30's", we were NEVER winning.
3. All prior experience with prohibitions have failed and will continue to fail. It's all there in the History books and the proof is also all around us.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:32 PM  
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We're not supposed to like the PEOPLE and CAUSES they support; we're supposed to like the CONSTITUTIONAL VALUES they support. They act as an important check against abuse of authority.
In the "80"s" Nazis wanted to march in Birdsboro PA near where I live. The newspaper article said several groups and individuals had contacted police and the mayor about stopping them. The article continued and added the ACLU was defending their right to march. WTF?

I went right to the local library to bone up on these idiot nazi lovers. I left that library with my tail between my legs because I understood that keeping my freedom to say what I believe is only safe if I defend the rights of others even if they're evil, ignorant and a pox upon the Earth.

"Prevailing laws [The Netherlands]

"The most important provisions regarding drugs are laid down in the Opium Act. Since 1976, the Act has made a distinction between hard drugs (drugs with an unacceptable risk to public health, including heroin, cocaine, LSD and ecstasy) and drugs that entail a less significant risk (hash and marijuana). Fresh magic mushrooms were added, along with dry magic mushrooms, to the provisions of the Opium Act, List II, on 1 December 2008. As a result, the sale of fresh magic mushrooms is now prohibited.

"Possessing, dealing in, selling and producing drugs are criminal offences. Use is not.

"? Offences are punished more severely if hard drugs (drugs with unacceptable risks) are a factor.

"? The possession of drugs for the purpose of dealing is also more severely penalized that possession for one?s own personal use (see level of punishment).

"? The police and the judiciary give priority to tackling the large-scale drug trade and the production of drugs, which means that small-scale dealers and users are not systematically pursued (see the principle of expediency).

"? The sale of small quantities of soft drugs in coffeeshops is an offence, but in practice prosecutions are only generally made if the coffeeshop in question does not adhere to what are known as the AHOJ-G criteria (see AHOJ-G criteria).

"? The aim of allowing controlled sales outlets for cannabis is to separate the markets so that cannabis users do not come into contact with hard drugs and a criminal subculture when making their purchase."

Source: D. van der Gouwe, E. Ehrlich, M.W. van Laar, "Drug policies in the Netherlands," Trimbos Institute, (March, 2009), p. 5.
http://www.minvws.nl/includes/dl/ope...ges/fo-drug-po...

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Old 06-13-2011, 04:58 PM  
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The powers-that-be have so stigmatized hemp (I believe this is because hemp would monetarily effect so many industries)
When it suits them.......



MERCY - the Medical Cannabis Resource Center | MercyCenters.org





85 years ago Harry Anslinger's job as a PROHIBITION agent was in jeopardy. To get himself job security Harry launched a PROPAGANDA campaign to criminalize a virtually innocuous drug used for thousands of years without concern. No country had laws against grass until Harry led the way.


shock-christian-leader-pat-robertson-favors-marijuana-legalization
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/22/shock-christian-leader-pat-robertson-favors-marijuana-legalization/
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Count this among the 10 things nobody ever expected to see in their lifetimes: 700 Club founder Pat Robertson, one of the cornerstone figures of America's Christian right movement, has come out in favor of legalizing marijuana.

Calling it getting "smart" on crime, Robertson aired a clip on a recent episode of his 700 Club television show that advocated the viewpoint of drug law reformers who run prison outreach ministries.

A narrator even claimed that religious prison outreach has "saved" millions in public funds by helping to reduce the number of prisoners who return shortly after being released.

"It got to be a big deal in campaigns: 'He's tough on crime,' and 'lock 'em up!'" the Christian Coalition founder said. "That's the way these guys ran and, uh, they got elected. But, that wasn't the answer."

His co-host added that the success of religious-run dormitories for drug and alcohol cessation therapy present an "opportunity" for faith-based communities to lead the way on drug law reforms.
"We're locking up people that have taken a couple puffs of marijuana and next thing you know they've got 10 years with mandatory sentences," Robertson continued. "These judges just say, they throw up their hands and say nothing we can do with these mandatory sentences. We've got to take a look at what we're considering crimes and that's one of 'em.

"I'm ... I'm not exactly for the use of drugs, don't get me wrong, but I just believe that criminalizing marijuana, criminalizing the possession of a few ounces of pot, that kinda thing it's just, it's costing us a fortune and it's ruining young people. Young people go into prisons, they go in as youths and come out as hardened criminals. That's not a good thing."
Dontcha just love the ACLU?-michigan-opening-919x1024.jpg 

Dontcha just love the ACLU?-legalize-tax.jpg 

Dontcha just love the ACLU?-quotes-2.2.jpg 

Dontcha just love the ACLU?-20-million-prison-1-.jpg 

Dontcha just love the ACLU?-marijuana-states-america-special.jpg 

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