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Old 07-18-2011, 11:37 AM  
mohel
 
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
I often wonder if the strongest advocates are also the primary benefactors of this "free money society?"

The primary benefactors lack tools and contacts to lobby government. On the other hand the greediest of the wealthy spend tons on lobbiests and tax accountants & tax attorneys.
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:41 AM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
The primary benefactors lack tools and contacts to lobby government. On the other hand the greediest of the wealthy spend tons on lobbiests and tax accountants & tax attorneys.
The primary benefactors you speak of do have one thing that you forgot to mention..... Votes. And lots of them. They can vote for who offers the most handouts.
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:43 AM  
mohel
 
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A Glossary of Political Economy Terms by Dr. Paul M. Johnson

Right-wing, rightist: A Glossary of Political Economy Terms - Dr. Paul M. Johnson

Quote:
Right-wing, rightist
A general descriptive term for any of several otherwise rather different, conservative, reactionary or fascist political ideologies, the common denominator of which is their qualified or enthusiastic support for the main features of the current social and economic order, accepting all (or nearly all) of its inequalities of wealth, status and privilege (or even in some cases support for a return to an earlier, even more inegalitarian and hierarchical political-economic order). Right wing ideologies tend to emphasize the values of order, patriotism, social cohesion, and a personal sense of duty that makes the individual citizen who ?knows his place? responsive to discipline from his political and social superiors. In America, the term has a somewhat more derogatory flavor than in Europe.

See also: ideology, legitimacy, left-wing, fascism, conservatism
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:49 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
The primary benefactors you speak of do have one thing that you forgot to mention..... Votes. And lots of them. They can vote for who offers the most handouts.
My sentiments exactly.
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:56 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
The primary benefactors you speak of do have one thing that you forgot to mention..... Votes. And lots of them. They can vote for who offers the most handouts.
The others have the ability to vote too though, even buy votes plus have access to the lobby and tax attornys and on an on......
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:18 PM  
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I do believe we are in quite a political mess. I will agree that we have politicians who are bought. You also have politicians who are buying votes. Do you really know where the problem lies? The problem lies with a political system which allows different classes to be treated differently at the discretion of politicians. Like I said before, some politicians choose to be bought, and some choose to buy. If they didn't have anything to offer (.ie handouts, tax breaks, subsidies, etc...) then they would be more difficult to buy anything or be bought. We need a system with a set of standard that apply to ALL and cannot be made to benefit one group or the other. Therein lies the problem where some view solutions as benefitting one group or the other such as the fair tax. The main reason that most politicians and most media slam the fair tax is because it takes the ability to "offer" things from the government. All pay the same tax% (I know some will say "oh but businesses....blah blah blah..."). I think that even if it isn't perfect, removing power to give things away from the politicians will solve ALOT of the problems we have.

Oh, and if the system were drastically simplified, then the tax attorneys wouldn't be necessary..
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:38 PM  
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A tax accountant looks for every legitimate claim or loophole. A tax attorney helps you hide money from the tax man and defends this if you're caught.

We should start with tax attorneys...........
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:55 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Maybe businesses should be more like the government.... Hmmm......

We could go to the store, and the prices for goods or services would be based on income. The more you make, the more you pay (for the same item).. And if you make little enough, you get the item for free, or better yet, you get it for free and they give you money. How long do you think the business would go before going into the red..
Your argument suggests that a retailer should not hire an armored truck, because a wallet is "the same item" - a device for transporting money - and is far cheaper

You're suggesting that a guy who makes $250,000/year uses the roads no more than a guy who makes $25,000. That the guy who spends the weekend driving his 30' power boat around the lake causes no more wear and tear on the public beaches and piers than the guy who spends the weekend paddling his canoe.

Sure, we *could* install tollbooths everywhere, and charge people based on their actual use of everything. We could change the name of Earth to Ferenginar, if we wanted. But it would be cheaper, and just as fair, to tax everyone based on their income rather installing tollbooths on everything. It would NOT be more fair to levy taxes per capita.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:36 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I don't know what "agenda" you are referring to. And I don't know where you get that the "little people" (whoever that is supposed to be) get taxed at 25%. I will just put it like this. If the recipients of life subsidies didn't have things like cable, fancy cell phones, internet at home, car payments, manicures, etc.. then maybe I wouldn't have as much of a problem. I just know that I choose to go without some things to set my priorities, and some of these handouts seem to be unneccessary if others would do the same.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am aware that there are definitely some needs out there but I think that many many recipients are not really in need.
I could be wrong but I am willing to bet that only a small fraction of recipients would be considered poor if compared to even the MIDDLE CLASS in some other countries....
The agenda is following the ayn rand idea of capitalism, that everyone below you is a drain and worthless by comparison and the idea that much if not all of the burden should be shifted to the worthless people until they become worth something....

I completely agree with benefits reform, I know several nurses and have heard many stories about the kids with horrible parents that always have no job, no insurance but have the latest cell phones and ipads, we certainly need reform to our welfare systems, but not just "let's end medicare", let's cut the excess with a targeted strike, not a nuclear bomb affecting everyone. we need to be willing to be a little harsher individually to avoid being cruel to the hard working middle class

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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Your argument suggests that a retailer should not hire an armored truck, because a wallet is "the same item" - a device for transporting money - and is far cheaper

You're suggesting that a guy who makes $250,000/year uses the roads no more than a guy who makes $25,000. That the guy who spends the weekend driving his 30' power boat around the lake causes no more wear and tear on the public beaches and piers than the guy who spends the weekend paddling his canoe.

Sure, we *could* install tollbooths everywhere, and charge people based on their actual use of everything. We could change the name of Earth to Ferenginar, if we wanted. But it would be cheaper, and just as fair, to tax everyone based on their income rather installing tollbooths on everything. It would NOT be more fair to levy taxes per capita.
the point goes beyond that to how did he make his money, everything costs money to keep it regulated, businesses need roads, rarely is someone going to invade a poor country etc,, there are costs to society to become rich and stay rich, those costs should not be externalized to the poor. I agree these costs are very hard to specify exactly how much each worker/ or other government improved entity adds value to the wealthy but it does happen.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:08 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
That the guy who spends the weekend driving his 30' power boat around the lake causes no more wear and tear on the public beaches and piers than the guy who spends the weekend paddling his canoe.
I have a similar sized power boat. When I purchased it new, I had to pay an incredible sales tax. Every time I gas it up, I pay an extreme amount of gas tax (which is designated for road improvement primarily, when it sits in the water to boot!), I pay taxes on my annual boater's sticker fee, I pay an annual tax for a trailer registration fee, when it sits vacant in a dirt lot, and each and every year I pay a luxury tax, which comes as a property tax bill which is based on the price I paid for the boat.

Does this little canoe paddler pay similar taxes? I think not!
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