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Old 01-25-2012, 10:08 AM  
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Originally Posted by samfloor View Post
When the unions were strong, America was the most stable economy in the world. American manufacturing was at it's peak. Jobs were plentiful. After the Republicans started the attack on the unions, to make their rich supporters richer, the decline started. Check American economic history. Every time minimum wages go up, they claim it will cost jobs, but history shows it doesn't.


Oh and in manufacturing, if it becomes more expensive to employ a person than to automate a process then the business will automate (if they are to remain competitive). Over the years, automation technology has gotten less expensive and employing a person has become more expensive. What would you expect to happen??
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:26 AM  
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As far as unions go, they did do some great things when they started. There was a need for it. Now, it seems that some (if not most) of their requests (requirements) on businesses have been over the top. Look at the automakers. What do you think made them not able to compete with other outomakers (especially those like Toyota and Honda)?

Check out this chart at http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/view....esourceID=2050

The chart basically shows that the overall compensation (wages, benefits, etc..) at Honda and Toyota were twice the national average, but HALF of what they were at the "big three". Seems a bit ridiculous to me. That is the problem with Unions. How can they even come close to competing???
****These numbers were from 2006**** I'm sure they have likely changed some.
And instead of the money going into the pockets of the rank n file union workers, the money goes straight to a fat cat in Japan. Yah, we don't need unions anymore.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:37 AM  
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And instead of the money going into the pockets of the rank n file union workers, the money goes straight to a fat cat in Japan. Yah, we don't need unions anymore.
Or the money goes into materials and better engineering... (I don't think it is a coincedince that Toyotas and Honda's have a reputation for lasting longer.)

I know, American auto makers have made great advances in the quality of their cars. BUT, in the 80's and 90's the quality was quite poor. The new car price was about the same (or more even..) but the quality was not as good. I believe it was because money was being spent on employee benefits at some companies while other companies were able to reinvest in technology and quality materials.

Oh, and you fail to mention why on earth the UAW workers EXPECTED pay and benefits in excess of 4X the national average??? That is a bit ridiculous don't you think???
I will never forget while watching the news during the big three layoffs a UAW worker complaining.... He was complaining because after being laid off, he couldn't make his BOAT PAYMENT on only 80% of his salary... Yes, you read it right, he was STILL GETTING PAID more than 3X the national average (that a WORKER MAKES) to NOT WORK... Oh, and this guy was driving lug nuts on or something like that... Yeah, same thing the 17 year old does at the Goodyear tire place...

Yeah, you know what? I think you are right. We need Unions in all industries. That'll make us do GREAT!!!
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:54 AM  
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But look what they where there are no unions. When GM started building cars in Mexico, They were paying $1.10 an hour with no benefits. Did they pass on the savings to car buyers, no. What these companies fail to realize, if they keep suppressing wages, even their own employees can no longer afford to buy their products. That is one thing that has contributed to this horrible economy.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:58 AM  
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One of the major contributions to teen unemployent, as a former business owner, I can tell you, they don't want to work. The ones I encountered had a very poor work ethic. In the mid 80's I was paying $12 an hour. And giving them a chance to learn a trade and they didn't want to work. Most of the teens I know here have been fired from several jobs before they turn 20.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:26 AM  
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Originally Posted by samfloor View Post
One of the major contributions to teen unemployent, as a former business owner, I can tell you, they don't want to work. The ones I encountered had a very poor work ethic. In the mid 80's I was paying $12 an hour. And giving them a chance to learn a trade and they didn't want to work. Most of the teens I know here have been fired from several jobs before they turn 20.
I don't doubt that! I think that most kids are being raised to be spoiled brats! There are good ones out there I'm sure, but it likely takes some looking! So, do you think the ones with the poor work ethic deserve a lower paying job? Too bad, minimum wage only lets the pay go so low.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:31 AM  
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Originally Posted by samfloor View Post
But look what they where there are no unions. When GM started building cars in Mexico, They were paying $1.10 an hour with no benefits. Did they pass on the savings to car buyers, no. What these companies fail to realize, if they keep suppressing wages, even their own employees can no longer afford to buy their products. That is one thing that has contributed to this horrible economy.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the companies want to make more money (duh, that is what one makes a business for...), I just know that at a certain point, the high pay and benefits are ridiculous and un-sustainable.
I work in manufacturing and part of my job is to look for ways to save money, the shareholders of the company REQUIRE it. One thing that is always looked at is can a robot do the same thing for cheaper. If it can and I choose not to do it because I don't want someone to lose their job then I will lose my job and they will find someone else who will. If my boss didn't require me to find cost savings then HE might get fired. It goes on up to the board that manage the shares. If they don't require cost savings they might get voted off the board of directors. So, if you want to blame someone for wanting to make more profit, then in most cases it is the shareholders (this is often the scenario anyway..). The shareholders are those whose retirements etc are invested. So, it is the fault of all who invest in anything. Who do you think that might be?
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:52 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Or the money goes into materials and better engineering... (I don't think it is a coincedince that Toyotas and Honda's have a reputation for lasting longer.)

I know, American auto makers have made great advances in the quality of their cars. BUT, in the 80's and 90's the quality was quite poor. The new car price was about the same (or more even..) but the quality was not as good. I believe it was because money was being spent on employee benefits at some companies while other companies were able to reinvest in technology and quality materials.

Oh, and you fail to mention why on earth the UAW workers EXPECTED pay and benefits in excess of 4X the national average??? That is a bit ridiculous don't you think???
I will never forget while watching the news during the big three layoffs a UAW worker complaining.... He was complaining because after being laid off, he couldn't make his BOAT PAYMENT on only 80% of his salary... Yes, you read it right, he was STILL GETTING PAID more than 3X the national average (that a WORKER MAKES) to NOT WORK... Oh, and this guy was driving lug nuts on or something like that... Yeah, same thing the 17 year old does at the Goodyear tire place...

Yeah, you know what? I think you are right. We need Unions in all industries. That'll make us do GREAT!!!
What I think is ridiculas is people who are so antiunion as to think that it was the unions who brought down US auto manufacturers and not the methods. The Japanese auto industry was bombed into the stone age by US bombers, then rebuilt with Americans help with stae of the art equipment. The US auto industry, and industry in general, were pre-war technology until the 80's early 90's when forced to either go out or restructure . . . this is what happened to U.S. Steel, Pittsburg Steel, Kaiser Steel etc., etc.,. As of today, NOW that at last the US auto industry has retooled, their vehicles are lasting every bit as long as foreign vehicles, unionised or not. It takes time to build a reputation. The last Chevy I had was a POS, my Nissan and Toyota have problems too. When I took my Chevy back to the dealer for warrantee repairs, they would not back their warrantee and treated me poorly, THAT's what sank Chevy for ME. If you won't buy theur products because they're union that's your mislead conclusion and priveledge. I have a 2011 Nissan sitting here with less than 11K with service engine codes popping every other day, my 07 Toyota has had the same code popping since 15K. That old US manufactured because they are union don't fly.

Also, if you think Toyota is doing all they can to modernize their design and quality you are sorrily mistaken there too. It's just NOT so. they do what they MUST to stay within new requirements and that's IT. They may add new options here or there but that's about it. Don't be fooled, it has nothing to do with unions.

And where would you like to see UAW stop to stand their ground, because they are gonna loose some no matter what, so where do they stop fighting for what they have? at 3X, 2X, how about minimun wage without ANY benefits? That's a ridiculas idea to want them to not fight to keep what they have. What if your boss walked in tomorrow morning and said, "we're gonna drop your wage down to next to nothing cause we can't compete"
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Old 01-25-2012, 03:25 PM  
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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post
What I think is ridiculas is people who are so antiunion as to think that it was the unions who brought down US auto manufacturers and not the methods. The Japanese auto industry was bombed into the stone age by US bombers, then rebuilt with Americans help with stae of the art equipment. The US auto industry, and industry in general, were pre-war technology until the 80's early 90's when forced to either go out or restructure . . . this is what happened to U.S. Steel, Pittsburg Steel, Kaiser Steel etc., etc.,. As of today, NOW that at last the US auto industry has retooled, their vehicles are lasting every bit as long as foreign vehicles, unionised or not. It takes time to build a reputation. The last Chevy I had was a POS, my Nissan and Toyota have problems too. When I took my Chevy back to the dealer for warrantee repairs, they would not back their warrantee and treated me poorly, THAT's what sank Chevy for ME. If you won't buy theur products because they're union that's your mislead conclusion and priveledge. I have a 2011 Nissan sitting here with less than 11K with service engine codes popping every other day, my 07 Toyota has had the same code popping since 15K. That old US manufactured because they are union don't fly.

Also, if you think Toyota is doing all they can to modernize their design and quality you are sorrily mistaken there too. It's just NOT so. they do what they MUST to stay within new requirements and that's IT. They may add new options here or there but that's about it. Don't be fooled, it has nothing to do with unions.

And where would you like to see UAW stop to stand their ground, because they are gonna loose some no matter what, so where do they stop fighting for what they have? at 3X, 2X, how about minimun wage without ANY benefits? That's a ridiculas idea to want them to not fight to keep what they have. What if your boss walked in tomorrow morning and said, "we're gonna drop your wage down to next to nothing cause we can't compete"
I agree that the American outo makers have improved (I believe I already said that..). And I will agree that perhaps Toyota isn't as good as they once were, now relying on their reputation. I don't know. I do know that about 8 years ago I had two chevys in my yard with grass around them (both around 100k miles.) Also in my yard was a toyota pickup with about 200k (300k now) on it and a Nissan with about 175k on it. That is when I decided.
As far as unions... It seems to be common sense that if a company pays its employees twice what it's competitor does (all other factors the same let's say..) then it WILL NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE. Also, I still say that the more someone gets paid, the more likely they are to be replaced with automation. That is FACT. You cannot argue with that. I believe that free market is the way to go. If a manufacturer pays poor wages then it is likely that some other company may come into town and outpay them to get their better employees. If another one doesn't come to town then they should be glad to have a job at all.
I used to work at a union facility and the workers with alot of seniority weren't worth a rip. They were the most lazy ones there and if a new guy came in and "worked too hard" then something bad might happen to them when nobody was looking... It's a dirty business at some of these union shops... Now, I'm not saying they are all that way. And yes, I often times won't purchase an overpriced product so that some guy sweeping the floor can pay for their jet skis and their cruise..... That is my choice. If I can get just as good of a product for less then I will do it. I'm no dummy.
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Old 01-25-2012, 04:25 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I agree that the American outo makers have improved (I believe I already said that..). And I will agree that perhaps Toyota isn't as good as they once were, now relying on their reputation. I don't know. I do know that about 8 years ago I had two chevys in my yard with grass around them (both around 100k miles.) Also in my yard was a toyota pickup with about 200k (300k now) on it and a Nissan with about 175k on it. That is when I decided.
As far as unions... It seems to be common sense that if a company pays its employees twice what it's competitor does (all other factors the same let's say..) then it WILL NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE. Also, I still say that the more someone gets paid, the more likely they are to be replaced with automation. That is FACT. You cannot argue with that. I believe that free market is the way to go. If a manufacturer pays poor wages then it is likely that some other company may come into town and outpay them to get their better employees. If another one doesn't come to town then they should be glad to have a job at all.
I used to work at a union facility and the workers with alot of seniority weren't worth a rip. They were the most lazy ones there and if a new guy came in and "worked too hard" then something bad might happen to them when nobody was looking... It's a dirty business at some of these union shops... Now, I'm not saying they are all that way. And yes, I often times won't purchase an overpriced product so that some guy sweeping the floor can pay for their jet skis and their cruise..... That is my choice. If I can get just as good of a product for less then I will do it. I'm no dummy.
And my son had an American UNION Dodge that had in excess of 220K on the odometer when it broke the axle housing. It still ran fine. I had a Nissan with 230K when traded in. Like I say, US automanufacturing is working out the bugs. US's problem, both in manufacturing and politics is that we are too much looking BEHIND us not forward. Retro Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers and Reagan, Bush and Clinton and Kennedy. We need to turn the hail around and watch where we're going.

I CAN argue with the automation point you put out there too, any company hotshot that can make more by exploiting his employess will do so, any hotshot that can replace that exploited employee by a more economical means, (robotics & automation) will do so. It don't matter if unionised or not.
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