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Old 01-25-2012, 09:11 PM  
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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post

I CAN argue with the automation point you put out there too, any company hotshot that can make more by exploiting his employess will do so, any hotshot that can replace that exploited employee by a more economical means, (robotics & automation) will do so. It don't matter if unionised or not.
You just restated what I said except you called the one doing the math a "hotshot" or whatever... And you called the employee "exploited". You are correct that it isn't only union shops subject to automation. However, if unionized the employee is likely paid an amount that makes it more easier to justify automating the position. Oh, and if I were to identify a position at my place of employment that could be automated, I wouldn't make more money from it.
Let me ask you this...How much automation is too much? And, is the guy who buys a backhoe to dig ditches some evil "hotshot" because he could just hire a crew with shovels? How many jobs were lost due to the backhoe? Sounds silly doesn't it?
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:33 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I don't doubt that! I think that most kids are being raised to be spoiled brats! There are good ones out there I'm sure, but it likely takes some looking! So, do you think the ones with the poor work ethic deserve a lower paying job? Too bad, minimum wage only lets the pay go so low.
I don't know, the baby boom generation is the one that enjoys(ed) strong union pay (directly or indirectly if they didn't have one), pensions/401k/medicare and social security but willing to destroy it for the next generation as long as they get all of it..... so as to who is being the spoiled brat......

I'm sure this generation will have no trouble paying for all their medical bills and living expenses off an average 3% company match 401k..... yep, no problem could be created from expecting that people will save up on their own.... nope none at all......
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:05 AM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
I don't know, the baby boom generation is the one that enjoys(ed) strong union pay (directly or indirectly if they didn't have one), pensions/401k/medicare and social security but willing to destroy it for the next generation as long as they get all of it..... so as to who is being the spoiled brat......

I'm sure this generation will have no trouble paying for all their medical bills and living expenses off an average 3% company match 401k..... yep, no problem could be created from expecting that people will save up on their own.... nope none at all......
Well, I know I'm not counting on SS when I get older..... Oh, and I'm not a baby boomer if you were wondering. I am stashing away as much as I can afford for retirement (That is what one should do, you know...)... I think the whole spoiled thing has been progressive. Only getting worse with each generation. Whatever handouts the kids see, they expect that and more.... Oh, when I talk about someone being spoiled I am talking about what someone EXPECTS not what someone actually gets.

Are you saying that people are unable to save for themselves?? Or are you saying that alot of people chose to spend on other things instead of saving up?? And if that is the case, then are you saying that they shouldn't be liable for thier decisions??? Just wondering...
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:14 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
You just restated what I said except you called the one doing the math a "hotshot" or whatever... And you called the employee "exploited". You are correct that it isn't only union shops subject to automation. However, if unionized the employee is likely paid an amount that makes it more easier to justify automating the position. Oh, and if I were to identify a position at my place of employment that could be automated, I wouldn't make more money from it.
Let me ask you this...How much automation is too much? And, is the guy who buys a backhoe to dig ditches some evil "hotshot" because he could just hire a crew with shovels? How many jobs were lost due to the backhoe? Sounds silly doesn't it?

A good company knows how to maintain it's employees and modernize as well. I worked for a company (unionized) that was in trouble. What they did was let the union rank & file, in lieu of wage increases and some benefits, take stock % . What happened was the company was OWNED by the workers and the company's profits began to turn around. They were the ones that would not have a RIF (reduction in force) but offer incentives for early retirement or work out through natural attrition when robotics were to replace workers.
Usually, what you talked about earlier, you have a FEW who work their fannies off, going out of their way to do EXTRA, then, you have a FEW who are the opposite and do NOTHING, the majority work along and do what they are supposed to, This can be found anywhere rather unions are involved or not, from grade school up. It has nothing to do with collective bargaining, it's human nature.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:32 AM  
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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post
A good company knows how to maintain it's employees and modernize as well. I worked for a company (unionized) that was in trouble. What they did was let the union rank & file, in lieu of wage increases and some benefits, take stock % . What happened was the company was OWNED by the workers and the company's profits began to turn around. They were the ones that would not have a RIF (reduction in force) but offer incentives for early retirement or work out through natural attrition when robotics were to replace workers.
Usually, what you talked about earlier, you have a FEW who work their fannies off, going out of their way to do EXTRA, then, you have a FEW who are the opposite and do NOTHING, the majority work along and do what they are supposed to, This can be found anywhere rather unions are involved or not, from grade school up. It has nothing to do with collective bargaining, it's human nature.
I agree with most of what you said here. And when I am talking about replacing positions with automation, I am not necessarily talking about firing or laying off anyone. I am basically referring to there not being as many jobs out there due to automation. Less people are required to do the same work. That is a large reason that productivity has increased so much in manufacturing in the past 30 years. Also, I do think that stock options are good. I really would like to se more co-op type of setups. Especially in Union type operations (not sure how that would work, basically employee unions negotiating with themselves...). Trying to do a co-op type of operation in a union shop would probably shine light on the problems with unions.
And I believe that a reward system based almost completely on seniority (which is almost always the way a union shop is set up) instead of performance based ENCOURAGES people to do the bare minimum to keep their job. There is nothing to be gained by being an exceptional employee. This trains people to NOT try to be a great employee.

I remember when I was working at a union shop, we had a new superviser who started posting production numbers up for each production line... The old timers were SO MAD about this. I wonder why??? That type of thing seems to be frowned upon in a union environment but commoon place in a non-union environment. Can you guess why?


Oh, and Hihood, I keem meaning to tell you how funny your profile pic is!! I laugh almost every time I see it!
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:20 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I agree with most of what you said here. And when I am talking about replacing positions with automation, I am not necessarily talking about firing or laying off anyone. I am basically referring to there not being as many jobs out there due to automation. Less people are required to do the same work. That is a large reason that productivity has increased so much in manufacturing in the past 30 years. Also, I do think that stock options are good. I really would like to se more co-op type of setups. Especially in Union type operations (not sure how that would work, basically employee unions negotiating with themselves...). Trying to do a co-op type of operation in a union shop would probably shine light on the problems with unions.
And I believe that a reward system based almost completely on seniority (which is almost always the way a union shop is set up) instead of performance based ENCOURAGES people to do the bare minimum to keep their job. There is nothing to be gained by being an exceptional employee. This trains people to NOT try to be a great employee.

I remember when I was working at a union shop, we had a new superviser who started posting production numbers up for each production line... The old timers were SO MAD about this. I wonder why??? That type of thing seems to be frowned upon in a union environment but commoon place in a non-union environment. Can you guess why?


Oh, and Hihood, I keem meaning to tell you how funny your profile pic is!! I laugh almost every time I see it!
I was rarely in production, the nonunion shop I was in was a production shop and I started as an operater. Within a few mos was in charge of the entire lathe department, with hydraulic & CNC machines. Had to leave, not enough money. A lot of responsibility for peanuts. I usually was in maintenance, when things broke, I fix or beat it with a hammer til they HAD to replace it. The hardest work I have ever done, barre non, was two unionised places. When a guy didn't carry his load, the other guys MADE them, no kidding, or drove them out. That was the union brother too. In certain eviroments everybody has to do their part or incentives are not met or things don't work smoothly, one lazy clown will screw the whole crew over. We, in one place, worked 15 mins in, 15 out, due to excessive heat, if you go back in and nothing was done, the guy out is in big trouble, before the boss knows, it was cured. Yet people will still say "lazy union guys brought the industry down" I personally know, it's BS. I was there, we worked our rear ends off and TEAM work was involved and expected, by the union brothers & sisters. What we are talking about here is what killed the steel mills in the US, robotics and modernization by the competition while we were left sitting obsolete and taking the blame.
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:52 AM  
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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post
I was rarely in production, the nonunion shop I was in was a production shop and I started as an operater. Within a few mos was in charge of the entire lathe department, with hydraulic & CNC machines. Had to leave, not enough money. A lot of responsibility for peanuts. I usually was in maintenance, when things broke, I fix or beat it with a hammer til they HAD to replace it. The hardest work I have ever done, barre non, was two unionised places. When a guy didn't carry his load, the other guys MADE them, no kidding, or drove them out. That was the union brother too. In certain eviroments everybody has to do their part or incentives are not met or things don't work smoothly, one lazy clown will screw the whole crew over. We, in one place, worked 15 mins in, 15 out, due to excessive heat, if you go back in and nothing was done, the guy out is in big trouble, before the boss knows, it was cured. Yet people will still say "lazy union guys brought the industry down" I personally know, it's BS. I was there, we worked our rear ends off and TEAM work was involved and expected, by the union brothers & sisters. What we are talking about here is what killed the steel mills in the US, robotics and modernization by the competition while we were left sitting obsolete and taking the blame.
Perhaps your union scenario is the exception. I know that where I was, the ones who worked harder had to pick up the slack of the others. If the supervisers needed something a little extra done (help with something etc..) then they went straight to the ones who worked harder (usually the new guys who "didn't know any better") instead of the seasoned guys. They basically came in, punched a clock and did their routine and went home...

Also, the first scenario of yours you described (the non-union one), you got promoted in a short period of time... How many union shops would you see that kind of rapid promotion without a bunch of whining from the "old timers"?? Just wondering.

Oh, and I have worked production in a Union shop, and non-union. Both in a right to work state.

One thing I would like to add. If I had stayed at the union shop, I would probably be making the same or more than I am making now. The difference is that I would likely be doing the same thing too, not learning anything new and not being promoted... Just punching the clock. Not what I wanted to do.
Now, I have acquired many more skills than I would have had I stayed. I didn't like the way the union shop was with everything based on seniority and NOTHING based on performance. It was a teamsters union by the way..
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