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Old 10-21-2010, 07:22 AM  
Great Dane Loving Jeeper

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The problem with putting illegals in our prisons is that for many of them that is a step up from their current situation. Plus US tax dollars go to fund it. Send them to Argentina; at least it will take them awhile to get back to the US border.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:07 PM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
Same as it ever was. It sucks, but how can we be a nation founded by immigrants and not let a few in? I think we should make the immigration easier, it would allow us to say no without looking like hypocrites.
Precious few people have a problem with legal immigration: it's the illegal aliens and their enablers that are the problem.
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:45 PM  
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I agree. I'm 100% for legals coming over - you're right, that's what made our country great in the first place. It's the illegal immigrants that come over and take advantage of us, and I end up footing the bill, that I have no compassion for.
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:58 PM  
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Precious few people have a problem with legal immigration: it's the illegal aliens and their enablers that are the problem.

Legal immigration isn't the easiest thing in the world, and it's almost impossible if you are coming from a country where being poor is the reason to immigrate.

We all act like there a channels to go through, but there really isn't. Not unless you are skilled, have no debt, and have family already here, but in that case you are probably doing alright, you just want to do better.

We have no provision appropriate for Mexican immigration, which is what we are all talking about.

I'm not saying we should let them in, but lets be realistic, even through the legal immigration, they can't get in, so why would they try? They are people to, people willing to risk a lot more for the American dream than most Americans. I find a sense of honor in what they are doing, not in how it's executed, but in that they are trying to make there lives better, and are willing to risk their lives and freedom to accomplish it.

I haven't worked that hard for my freedom.

I think most of us haven't.
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:17 PM  
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I think I see it more black and white - maybe it's the Marine coming out in me.

They're breaking the law that service members are dying daily to protect.

I do think we need an overhaul of the system and definitely give them an easier way to get here legally, and I wish someone would just draw something up for that. But on the other hand, until that happens I still just see them as criminals and, unfortunately (although I know it's not all of them), the majority that I've seen aren't exactly contributing to society.
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:38 PM  
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I think I see it more black and white - maybe it's the Marine coming out in me.

They're breaking the law that service members are dying daily to protect.

I do think we need an overhaul of the system and definitely give them an easier way to get here legally, and I wish someone would just draw something up for that. But on the other hand, until that happens I still just see them as criminals and, unfortunately (although I know it's not all of them), the majority that I've seen aren't exactly contributing to society.
They are exactly what you are dying for. If we are fighting in wars of liberation then we fight for an ideal, and America is founded on ideals. Ideals of freedom and prosperity, the same thing these people immigrate for. You fight so we can have a better life, they fight for the same. How is that different? And we both know the military does tons of illegal shady things. Abu Graib comes to mind, but there are plenty of other things. So fighting to uphold laws that you break would be hypocritical wouldn't it? Let's use cruel and unusual punishment for instance. The military routinely uses it, but we have a constitutional provision protecting us form it.
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:38 PM  
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Personally, I fight for the laws, because our "American ideals" have been warped over time. I've got my own personal beliefs of what they are, of course, but that's irrelevant.

So you're comparing American service members serving away from their families and dying over in the Middle East to immigrants crossing the border? That's a bit on the extreme side.

I don't disagree that the military has its shortcomings. It's unfortunate that there are so many, but just like any other major organization, it's bound to happen.

Article 55 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice still prohibits the use of cruel and unusual punishment. I'm guessing you've never served to assume that we "routinely" use it.

If I'm fighting for illegal aliens to come over here, break our laws, and not pay taxes, then I'd desert tomorrow. Fortunately for me, I know that's not what I, personally, do what I do for.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:03 PM  
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Let me put it this way: despite the massive problems that the USA has; this nation is still one of the more desirable places to immigrate too. That stated; we have the right to pick and choose whom we let in, if that offends Mexico (the largest source of illegal aliens)----------tough! Especially in light of the fact that Mx is in the top 10% of all nations economically----------far ahead of China on a per capita basis.

BTW: I am a now x 'Kumbaya' type old Hippie who wised up in recent years.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:34 PM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
Personally, I fight for the laws, because our "American ideals" have been warped over time. I've got my own personal beliefs of what they are, of course, but that's irrelevant.

So you're comparing American service members serving away from their families and dying over in the Middle East to immigrants crossing the border? That's a bit on the extreme side.

I don't disagree that the military has its shortcomings. It's unfortunate that there are so many, but just like any other major organization, it's bound to happen.

Article 55 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice still prohibits the use of cruel and unusual punishment. I'm guessing you've never served to assume that we "routinely" use it.

If I'm fighting for illegal aliens to come over here, break our laws, and not pay taxes, then I'd desert tomorrow. Fortunately for me, I know that's not what I, personally, do what I do for.
i agree 100%

to group the entire military together like that is kind of an ignorant train of thought.

when a cop is on the national news because he went too far do you look at your local pd differently?

remember that bus driver that whooped that kids ass on camera? did you automatically assume your kids bus driver did the same thing?

you have to remeber that the united states military is HUGE. its also under a very bright spotlight. so when something like a article 55 violation happens EVERYONE sees it. we don't get a chance to handle it internally.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:45 AM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
They are exactly what you are dying for. If we are fighting in wars of liberation then we fight for an ideal, and America is founded on ideals. Ideals of freedom and prosperity, the same thing these people immigrate for. You fight so we can have a better life, they fight for the same. How is that different? And we both know the military does tons of illegal shady things. Abu Graib comes to mind, but there are plenty of other things. So fighting to uphold laws that you break would be hypocritical wouldn't it? Let's use cruel and unusual punishment for instance. The military routinely uses it, but we have a constitutional provision protecting us form it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
Personally, I fight for the laws, because our "American ideals" have been warped over time. I've got my own personal beliefs of what they are, of course, but that's irrelevant.

So you're comparing American service members serving away from their families and dying over in the Middle East to immigrants crossing the border? That's a bit on the extreme side.

I don't disagree that the military has its shortcomings. It's unfortunate that there are so many, but just like any other major organization, it's bound to happen.

Article 55 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice still prohibits the use of cruel and unusual punishment. I'm guessing you've never served to assume that we "routinely" use it.

If I'm fighting for illegal aliens to come over here, break our laws, and not pay taxes, then I'd desert tomorrow. Fortunately for me, I know that's not what I, personally, do what I do for.
How is it extreme? The founders of our country died so that others could be free. Are you not doing the same?

As for the routine use of cruel and unusual punishment, I don't think every service man is torturing people, but the military has admitted to using Water Boarding on a regular basis, and that's torture. I'm not blaming you, I'm pointing out where the American Military fights for ideals, not law. You have to do things beyond the scope of law in order to accomplish your mission, fighting for law is not the same thing as fighting for order and freedom, or using those laws to perpetuate the freedom of others. War is hell, I accept that.

I see a clear link between what our founding father fought to get away from, and what immigrants fight to get away from.

They were immigrants, looking to be heard by the people that governed them, and sought freedom from oppression in all it's forms.

How do a bunch of immigrants looking to escape persecution and poverty, any different from immigrants looking to escape persecution and poverty?

As for the untaxed status of illegal aliens, that's our fault for having a terrible tax system. We could easily make money off of them, we choose not to. We could also implement systems that could cover the national debt, without raising taxes and all the while stimulating our economy, but people are afraid of what they don't understand, and that ignorance is now what is setting us back as a country.

We are going to fall if we don't stay ahead of the game. That's how republics work, look at every single last one that existed before us. We aren't any different. We could be though.
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