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Old 10-27-2010, 10:37 AM  
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i would like you to specify what you mean by "routine torture"
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:40 AM  
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The accepted and continual use of water boarding in interrogation.

Also the practice of sending prisoners of war to other countries to be tortured, as if we aren't responsible because we keep our hands clean.
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Old 10-27-2010, 02:53 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
How is it extreme? The founders of our country died so that others could be free. Are you not doing the same?

As for the routine use of cruel and unusual punishment, I don't think every service man is torturing people, but the military has admitted to using Water Boarding on a regular basis, and that's torture. I'm not blaming you, I'm pointing out where the American Military fights for ideals, not law. You have to do things beyond the scope of law in order to accomplish your mission, fighting for law is not the same thing as fighting for order and freedom, or using those laws to perpetuate the freedom of others. War is hell, I accept that.

I see a clear link between what our founding father fought to get away from, and what immigrants fight to get away from.

They were immigrants, looking to be heard by the people that governed them, and sought freedom from oppression in all it's forms.

How do a bunch of immigrants looking to escape persecution and poverty, any different from immigrants looking to escape persecution and poverty?

As for the untaxed status of illegal aliens, that's our fault for having a terrible tax system. We could easily make money off of them, we choose not to. We could also implement systems that could cover the national debt, without raising taxes and all the while stimulating our economy, but people are afraid of what they don't understand, and that ignorance is now what is setting us back as a country.

We are going to fall if we don't stay ahead of the game. That's how republics work, look at every single last one that existed before us. We aren't any different. We could be though.


I'm afraid I couldn't touch your comparison of me fighting over in Afghanistan, away from my wife and kids, to some lowlifes illegally crossing our border - I'm sure I'd lose my temper.

Congress banned waterboarding formally in 2005, and President Obama banned it again in 2009, simply to clarify that America thinks that it is torture. Show me an article where the "military" has admitted to using waterboarding on a regular basis. Not someone saying that the military does, but someone actually important quoted as saying we routinely use torture.

You're painting illegal immigrants out to be heroes. Here's some stats to help out this perception.

In 2000, 27% of federal inmates were illegal immigrants
In 2005, that had dropped to 20% - so 1 in 5 had never paid a cent in taxes, yet were living daily on our dime

According to the United Nations...

90% of America's cocaine is smuggled through Mexico

Mexico is the largest foreign supplier of marijuana and the second largest source of heroin for the U.S. market

The majority of methamphetamine sold in the United States is made in Mexico, and Mexican-run methamphetamine labs that operate north of the border account for much of the remainder


I'm not saying all illegal aliens are druggies, blah de blah - but statistics don't lie. They want to come over, and start a new life? Outstanding. Come over legally, just like my family did when it immigrated from Germany.

And I think we should just put up electric fences across the border, and actually enforce our own laws (Crazy, right?) Watch crime plummet in border cities, watch murder rates and prison populations drop.

We do agree that we definitely need a taxing system on these illegal immigrants - or something to have them contribute to society somewhat at least.

If sitting back and letting millions of illegal immigrants (10.8 million, as of last year) that account for the majority of our drugs and don't pay a dime in taxes come into our country is getting ahead as a republic, then it looks like I hope we fall behind.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:12 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
I'm afraid I couldn't touch your comparison of me fighting over in Afghanistan, away from my wife and kids, to some lowlifes illegally crossing our border - I'm sure I'd lose my temper.
Don't lose your temper. At the end of the day I still would like you as a friend. Friends can disagree. I am a good person, don't let my politics and religion blind you to that. I go to work, pay my taxes, raise my child, kiss my wife, and live without breaking laws. Same as you, with just a different way of seeing the world. An equally valid way.

I'm not necessarily comparing you, just the people that fought for the formation of our nation. You know, the immigrants that left behind their wife and kids to fight in state not their own. Those guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
Congress banned waterboarding formally in 2005, and President Obama banned it again in 2009, simply to clarify that America thinks that it is torture. Show me an article where the "military" has admitted to using waterboarding on a regular basis. Not someone saying that the military does, but someone actually important quoted as saying we routinely use torture.
I'll have to find it, I'm at work and only have time for debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
You're painting illegal immigrants out to be heroes. Here's some stats to help out this perception.
And you're making them all our to be drug dealers and people who don't care about law and order. Maybe we're both a little right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
In 2000, 27% of federal inmates were illegal immigrants
In 2005, that had dropped to 20% - so 1 in 5 had never paid a cent in taxes, yet were living daily on our dime
For what crimes? That statistic doesn't tell us anything about immigration, only about incarceration, which is BS in our country anyways. 25% are locked up for non violent drug offenses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
According to the United Nations...

90% of America's cocaine is smuggled through Mexico

Mexico is the largest foreign supplier of marijuana and the second largest source of heroin for the U.S. market

The majority of methamphetamine sold in the United States is made in Mexico, and Mexican-run methamphetamine labs that operate north of the border account for much of the remainder
So is everything. It's cheaper to ship to Mexico and drive it into Texas, for instance, than it is to ship it California and do the same. Every Country that has legalized all drugs is benefiting. You point out a problem, but it's not an immigration problem, it's an America problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
I'm not saying all illegal aliens are druggies, blah de blah - but statistics don't lie. They want to come over, and start a new life? Outstanding. Come over legally, just like my family did when it immigrated from Germany.
Mexican immigration is not the same as German immigration, and we aren't even talking about the same time period, so using you family as an example is not appropriate for the argument. For the record every immigrating ethnicity since the formation of the country has been met with the same hostility as hatred as the current.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
And I think we should just put up electric fences across the border, and actually enforce our own laws (Crazy, right?) Watch crime plummet in border cities, watch murder rates and prison populations drop.
Maybe. I think it would definitely curtail the illegal immigration issue, but violence and crime are a blight in our society, a blight that exist despite laws, so why would laws change it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
We do agree that we definitely need a taxing system on these illegal immigrants - or something to have them contribute to society somewhat at least.
We agree on a lot more than that. I think it's just going to take time to demonstrate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
If sitting back and letting millions of illegal immigrants (10.8 million, as of last year) that account for the majority of our drugs and don't pay a dime in taxes come into our country is getting ahead as a republic, then it looks like I hope we fall behind.
Drugs don't buy themselves. Do you blame guns for violence too? Is it McDonalds fault for making us fat? We are a supply and demand economy with an ever present demand. Drugs come from somewhere, always have, at one point Montgomery Wards sold them, I don't see you stopping them (but then I don't know you that well, you might be), the tax issue is due to a bad taxing system. You want solutions? Find the problem first. Is immigration part of it? Sure, but it wasn't a million illegal immigrants that just defaulted on their mortgages was it? Is it illegal immigrants sending our jobs over seas? Is it illegal immigrants making our kids shoot heroin? No, it's about choices, America as a whole has made some poor ones. Finding a scape goat isn't going to solve them.









So there's these 2 muffins in an oven.

They're both sitting, just chilling and getting baked.

And one of them yells "God Damn, it's hot in here!"

And the other muffin replies "Holy Crap, a talking muffin!"





Just to lighten the mood a little.
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Old 10-28-2010, 04:14 AM  
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Haha, sorry that I lost my cool there for a post or two. I feel very passionately about this subject, as you can tell. A few things kept me in perspective:

1) Your muffin joke, which never ceases to make me laugh

2) The fact that "homedepot" is a tag on this thread

With that being said, I've had a long day at work and don't quite feel like thinking about this - I'm going to digest what you said and reply back tomorrow. Have a good night/day/whatever time it is where you are!
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:56 AM  
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not biding an opinion either way about this video, just thought i would share it for reference

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:44 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
Haha, sorry that I lost my cool there for a post or two. I feel very passionately about this subject, as you can tell. A few things kept me in perspective:

1) Your muffin joke, which never ceases to make me laugh

2) The fact that "homedepot" is a tag on this thread

With that being said, I've had a long day at work and don't quite feel like thinking about this - I'm going to digest what you said and reply back tomorrow. Have a good night/day/whatever time it is where you are!
The same to you, I look forward to your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepcache View Post
not biding an opinion either way about this video, just thought i would share it for reference

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Good info.
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:09 PM  
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Alright, sorry for the delay. Had a shoulder surgery, and now have some time off work so I have more time to think about this subject.

Funetical, what would be your perfect picture for immigration reform?
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:40 AM  
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Here's an e-mail with info. you may not know......


Quote:
Three Presidents


What did Presidents Hoover, Truman, and Eisenhower have in common?


This is something that

should be of great interest for you to pass around.

I didn't know of this until it was pointed out to me.


Back during the great

depression, Herbert Hoover ordered the deportation

of ALL illegal aliens in order to make jobs

available to American citizens that desperately

needed work.


Harry Truman deported

over two million illegal aliens after WWII to create

jobs for returning veterans.


In 1954 Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million Mexicans.

The program was called Operation *******.

It was done so WWII and Korean veterans would

have a better chance at jobs. It took two

years, but they deported them!


Now

if they could deport the illegal aliens back then,

they could sure do it today. If you have

doubts about the veracity of this information, enter

Operation ******* into your favorite search engine

and confirm it for yourself.


Why

you might ask can't they do this today?

Actually the answer is quite simple.

Hoover , Truman, and Eisenhower were men of

honor, not untrustworthy politicians looking for votes!



Oh, and just a reminder:

Don't forget to pay your taxes - 12 to 20

million illegal aliens are depending on you!
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:56 AM  
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I am here legally,my family have been in AZ or Calif since Spanish Colonial days and if they want to see ID for me, I'll show it and be on my way, it ain't a big deal. If the Aztlan nation takes over, I will be here still, todo es lo mismo.
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