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Old 11-21-2010, 09:50 PM  
Commodore

San Marcos, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 538 | Kudos: +23
So let's say that a person who works full time but cannot afford health care, their child gets cancer, you think it should be survival of the fittest out there and by proxy of the parent not being able to afford it or get enough donations the child should die? We should revert back to a survival of the fittest in the true fashion?

If you haven't had health insurance in that long let me know tell you it's bad now. The industry will tell you from today until end times the Government is over regulating them. The reality of it is like in any Capitalist system the Corporations in this example the insurance industry working in a multiple tier monopoly have created the necessity of Government to regulate them just like Standard Oil and all it's "subsidiaries" because they have stunted the ability for new companies to offer services through their predatory practices.
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Old 11-21-2010, 09:56 PM  
Traveler

Knoxville, TN
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 107 | Kudos: +12
I'll be a little more honest with you guys.

We have had our share of medical expenses, eye docs, foot docs, and so on...also common cold and flu type stuff....$70 per visit and on average $100 per for meds....2-3 time per year and that a whole lot cheaper than $14 for a basic family plan with deductable and with co-pay...waaaay cheaper.

Now my wife and I have a son 5 years ago and she was working at the time and she had insurance through her work and that was a blessing. She has been a stay at home mom and she also home schools. She just started a part time job with the county last week and there is a possibility that she may have some benefits as a librarian, we'll see in a week or two when they give her her package.


I have had MRSA twice as a result of workplace infection. The first time I thought I was going to die, no kidding, if you ever get this crap you will know what I mean. I went to the family doc who gave me a script and sent me home. I was bed ridden for a week, deathly ill. I also, with the help of my wife, did all the home remmedies we could. I even lanced the wound myself to save the cost of a visit to the surgen, a 3 inch by 1/2 inch deep incision so that I could get the wound to drain.

Second time I knew what to expect and treated it early, not nearly as bad.


Point is, for centuries this is how life was, for me this is how life is.
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Old 11-21-2010, 10:09 PM  
Traveler

Knoxville, TN
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
So let's say that a person who works full time but cannot afford health care, their child gets cancer, you think it should be survival of the fittest out there and by proxy of the parent not being able to afford it or get enough donations the child should die? We should revert back to a survival of the fittest in the true fashion?

If you haven't had health insurance in that long let me know tell you it's bad now. The industry will tell you from today until end times the Government is over regulating them. The reality of it is like in any Capitalist system the Corporations in this example the insurance industry working in a multiple tier monopoly have created the necessity of Government to regulate them just like Standard Oil and all it's "subsidiaries" because they have stunted the ability for new companies to offer services through their predatory practices.

It doesn't matter Keith.

I had the same kinds of arguement with my brother last year...same crap..
He works for Price Waterhouse, 6 figure idiot, real smart guy, anyway he told me this when I asked him what he was going to do when the HC law raised his premiums? his answer "My firm will cover it, if they want to keep me they will do whatever it takes"....Well I have news for the smart guy, PW press release last week stated that they will raise there premiums and deducts and co-pays by 9.6%....and guess what? smart guy pays out of pocket...his 'firm' aint covering jack. So his $14,500 policy will now cost him about $16K and he still has a $500 deductable, $16,500.00 before the first insurance dollar kicks in.


So, in a couple of years, we don't have a couple, but anyway, no, no one will afford it, and this is just the begining.


Survival of the fittest? now really? extremes? screw over the masses for a few extreme cases? That arguement never holds up and is boring.
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Old 11-21-2010, 10:44 PM  
Traveler

Knoxville, TN
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 107 | Kudos: +12
I'll add something else that you guys may not be paying attention to, pay cuts.

Accross the board you will experiece about a 40% salery cut in new hires compared to the end of 2008. If you were laid off in 08 and you earned 100K, and if you can find a job you can expect to be hired at about $60K. As the cost to employer rises the payrates will lower to compensate, just a fact of life and it's happening.

Unintended consequences, a fact.

If you can find a skilled trades job..if...end of 08, on average about $16 to $18 per hour, today, $12 to $14 if you are lucky. I know, I'm looking.


To the example of my brother, I haven't talked to him since last Christmas, just can't take his arrogance. Anyway he bragged to our mother a couple of weeks ago that PW is hiring over the next year 55K new hires. If you know what they do and why...life if good, for now. But what smart guy doesn't realize is that they are being hired at a fraction of his employment cost and he will, in time, be replaced, no doubt about that. Why pay him a total cost to PW $155K when they can replace him for $105K? they will.
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:20 AM  
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Brian's Avatar

Rochester, New York
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Plenty of waivers have been given out so far. Here's one article talking about it. Visit google if you want more info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
So what is your alternative then Legislation in a Capitalistic society where a necessity to survival that everyone shares is too expensive and the sector that make it available engages in business practices that make it again non affordable or use arbitrary litigation to absolve itself from their consumers using what they paid for since those sick customers don't have the resource or time to engage in the legal process.
The first course of action would be to determine why health care costs are high. Considering it costs about $1 billion to bring a new drug to market and can take many years to get approved by the FDA, and considering that many hospitals are going broke catering to people who use the Emergency Room as their general practitioner, it is no wonder our costs are as high as they are. Let's rein in government meddling and get some tort reform and I guarantee you will see costs go way down quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
If you for whatever reason argue against any Government interference in business what are your thoughts in detail about the case brought against Rockefeller who controlled this entire Nation with it's predatory business practices.
If you're referring to the days of the "trust busters" -- Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Aldrich, et al, I suggest you read The Creature from Jekyll Island. That will answer your question. Those very people who were screwing Americans drafted the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and today we're beginning to understand how big a mistake that was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
Would it be proper to be enslaved by a couple of shareholders then a Democratically controlled Government?
Crony capitalism or corporatism is not reflective of a free-market economy and must be dealt with through legislation. Nationalizing the health care industry (or any other industry) is certainly not the answer.

We do not live in a democracy, thank goodness. Would you like 51% of the people deciding how much property and wealth of the other 49% to take for themselves? We live in a republic.

The real question around the health care bill is whether or not the government has the legal right to do pass this legislation. It does not. And that reason alone is why it should be declared a nullity immediately. It isn't about rising costs or higher taxes; it is about the government overstepping its bounds.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:42 PM  
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Stafford, Virginia
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If you can't afford it TOUGH dela with it.

I did for years.

Kieth have you ever been in the military? I spent 8 years in the Army. It took me 6 years to get a tooth fixed that a crappy guberment burger broke. 6 years to get a tooth pulled. I was forced to get a flu shot telling the medics I don't want one becuase I get very sick within 6 to 12 hours. Got it what do you know was in the ER in 8 hours with a temp of 104.3 vomiting and plenty of other stuff. I got 4L of lactatied Ringers and was sent back to work. Temp was still 103.2 and they told me to SUCK IT UP and go to work. One doctor said I was faking it. So I drove to work started walking up the stairs and passed out. had to get taken back to the ER for 2 L more of IV fluid. Temp now down to 102.9 go back to work. I was told to go back to work again. I couldn't walk let alone drive I was vomiting ever 2nd or third step. Yet I was to DRIVE MYSELF back to work. SO I did, again passed out going up the stairs. Thank god the Platoon SGT said for my two buddies to take me home.

That was normal for me with a flu shot. Haven't has a flu shot in going on 10 years. I work in an elementary school and have yet to get the flu.

I would go to sick call (Like urgent care) I would get glossed over when I had a real problem because many people were in there because of fake problems. So many people abused the system because they could. A PT test would be coming up and wow non running profiles would skyrocket. I am in the sick call for a knee that is swollen twice its normal size I can hardly bend it and the fat kid that didn't want to take the pt test gets a profile and i got NOTHING.

I don't work to feed your family nor do I work to provide your family with health insurance.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:01 PM  
Commodore

San Marcos, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 538 | Kudos: +23
I have never been in the Military.

I guess it's a fundamental disagreement where there is no compromise. To me if someone cannot afford health care even if they are total drain on society then I morally cannot allow them to just die. I think one major issue is we aren't talking about drains anymore, we are mainly talking about people who work their ass off but their jobs just don't offer health insurance and they cannot afford it or get it on the open market. We are mainly talking what used to be the middle class. Until Obamacare kicks in people with pre-existing conditions cannot buy health care, period, at least here in Texas. So if your job don't offer it which less and less are and you have a pre-existing condition, you are screwed currently.

I would rather pay in taxes or cut into other areas like our bloated defense budget to not have a Nation of dying poor people. It's bad for businesses to, having employees they cannot afford to give insurance and them getting sick and using the ER or being out of work whereas a Doctor visit could have solved it faster.

Even if you cut out items to make health care cheaper that's negating that we live in a Capitalist society. With lower costs there would be no incentives for Hospitals/Doctors to charge less, if anything they are already taxed as-is so more patients at a cheaper price is not good business.
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:13 AM  
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Stafford, Virginia
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I agree that a pre-existing condition crap is just that. CRAP. There is no reason for that.

We do need insurance reform but Obamacare is not the way to go about it.

Again if you work a job that doesn't provide it I don't care that was your fault for picking a job that didn't offer it.

When I finished college a few years ago. I had job offers from a few places one of which didn't offer health care because they are small. That place got tossed and never looked at again.

Again Why do I need to work to pay for yours or anyone else's health care. I pay my way so can you and everyone else.

As far as kids being sick and parents not having insurance again not my care. There are plenty of places like St. Judes that are FREE. They will bill Insurance if you have it and what ever the insurance pays is what they take. If you don't have insurance then do it for free.

Every doctor I had been to when I didn't have insurance would take a payment plan. I once had to go to the ER when my one cat got scared and cut my upper lip in half. I didn't have insurance and they sent me a bill with payment options. I picked one made the payments and paid it off.

Again we are back to personal responsibility. If you can't afford something then you make to where you can.

The government can't balance a budget, they can't fight a war, they can't do crap. Yet you people want them to run the health care system. We will all be dead in 5 years if we let them do that.
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