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Old 10-12-2011, 12:44 AM  
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
I think they want redistribution of wealth as some ventured into residential areas of millionaires. I wonder if they have the the Federal cell phone program that gives free phone service to over three million Americans. Although the pretense is that it's not a tax, it?s paid for by a monthly universal service charge on other users. When you rob one guy and give it to another guy of your choosing and hide what you?re doing that?s backdoor socialism.
None of which would be required if businesses paid their employees what they were worth and not just what they could get away with. They're strangling themselves when they refuse to do so. Tragedy of the commons.

How many full time jobs did the average family require to sustain themselves in the 1950's? How many in the 1960's? 1970's? 1980's? 1990's? 2000's? Today? That number has been steadily rising. The lowest and middle classes have been working harder and harder just to stay where they're at. There is no good reason for this.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:10 AM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
None of which would be required if businesses paid their employees what they were worth and not just what they could get away with. They're strangling themselves when they refuse to do so. Tragedy of the commons.

How many full time jobs did the average family require to sustain themselves in the 1950's? How many in the 1960's? 1970's? 1980's? 1990's? 2000's? Today? That number has been steadily rising. The lowest and middle classes have been working harder and harder just to stay where they're at. There is no good reason for this.
It's funny... I keep hearing stuff about employees should be paid more, but at the same time we should "buy american" and "why do the businesses keep going overseas" and "products are too expensive"... You do realize that those statements counter each other.

One more thing... My wife is a stay at home mom and I don't make all that much money... I also have no car payments, no cable, etc...... So it still can be done!!!



Also, you reference the '50s, 60's etc... Well you must also ask how much "stuff" do people have now that they didn't need back then? How many car payments do you think families had then? How many TV's did they have in the house? How many of them used clotheslines? These are the things that come to my mind (not certain how valid they are..)... Also, we didn't have this whole "global economy" stuff as much which has caused a great deal of competition in the economic world.....
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:55 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
It's funny... I keep hearing stuff about employees should be paid more, but at the same time we should "buy american" and "why do the businesses keep going overseas" and "products are too expensive"... You do realize that those statements counter each other.

One more thing... My wife is a stay at home mom and I don't make all that much money... I also have no car payments, no cable, etc...... So it still can be done!!!



Also, you reference the '50s, 60's etc... Well you must also ask how much "stuff" do people have now that they didn't need back then? How many car payments do you think families had then? How many TV's did they have in the house? How many of them used clotheslines? These are the things that come to my mind (not certain how valid they are..)... Also, we didn't have this whole "global economy" stuff as much which has caused a great deal of competition in the economic world.....
Wow that cloths line thing jogs my memory. Mom always used a cloths line when she could even though we had an electric dryer. She said it was better for the cloths and the sunlight and open air left a fresher scent. She still uses a cloths line. I have a surround sound theater room with the one flat screen TV and no others in the house. The old woman I live with just allows the room I have built out for the theater and wont allow another TV in the house. I kind of feel the same way in that one TV is enough.
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:56 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
It's funny... I keep hearing stuff about employees should be paid more, but at the same time we should "buy american" and "why do the businesses keep going overseas" and "products are too expensive"... You do realize that those statements counter each other.
No, they don't. Remember, the working class is currently "allotted" only 2.5% of the national wealth. That's the bottom 50% of the nation, 2.5% of the money. That number has been dropping, consistently, since the 1970s. Just 10 years ago, that number was around 4%.

Products aren't too expensive because of labor costs, but because business owners are raking in too much in profit, lest other business owners take in a larger share. Neither is adequately concerned about the fact that the profits they are raking in come at the expense of destroying their mutual customer base. They're strangling the golden goose. Tragedy of the Commons.

Tragedy of the Commons is usually illustrated as a group of herders sharing a common grazing land. It's to each individual herder's benefit to graze his cattle there, as any gain (fattened cattle) is his alone, while any loss (depleted grazing land) is shared among everyone with access to the land.

The solution to the tragedy of the Commons is NOT "free market" - the incentives at work ensure that a free market will cause the destruction of the Commons, destroying the ability for any of the herders to graze cattle.

The solution to this problem is mutual agreements on how to fairly share the commons such that the maximum sustainable benefit is achieved. The solution is "government".


I shared a proposal awhile back that looks a hell of a lot more feasible today than it did back then, and keeps government influence on business to a minimum.

Require that no major business increase the regional poverty rate through its employment practices.

What this means is that a business can only hire a limited amount of workers at less than a living wage. If the regional poverty rate is 10%, any business in that region is required to hire at least 90% of its employees at or above a living wage.

With every business either agreeing to or being compelled to do this, the "commons" is protected without governmental redistribution of wealth or any of the other socialist accusations levied against the protesters.
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:59 AM  
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I guess my point is that the "expectations" for what one should have now is different that it used to be. Todays expectations are difficult to meet for many with only one income in a household. There are many factors to this. It reminds me of something that my mother said just the other day.

She grew up in a small rural area during the 40-50's and she said that she felt that they did pretty well (her father died early, mother only)...until she went to college and had others to compare to. Her mother made their clothes. To her, that was normal. She got to college and around others (other classes I guess) and apparently she was "poor".
In todays society, there is so much communication that it is inevitable that there are more comparisons of others around and much more categorizing. I think that folks would be more content if they weren't comparing themselves to the success of others.
Just random thoughts really....
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:07 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
..Tragedy of the Commons is usually illustrated as a group of herders sharing a common grazing land. It's to each individual herder's benefit to graze his cattle there, as any gain (fattened cattle) is his alone, while any loss (depleted grazing land) is shared among everyone with access to the land.

The solution to the tragedy of the Commons is NOT "free market" - the incentives at work ensure that a free market will cause the destruction of the Commons, destroying the ability for any of the herders to graze cattle.

The solution to this problem is mutual agreements on how to fairly share the commons such that the maximum sustainable benefit is achieved. The solution is "government".

You didn't mention who owns this land. In the scenario you mentioned, with the grazing land, the best option I see is to divide this so called "common grazing land" equally and be done. Later, if one of the herders utilizes his land better and keeps a good balance in the grassand cattle, and as a result does better than the others... Let's say one of the others doesn't and one of his cows dies. I think that it should be fine for the one with "more success" and the one with the dead cow to trade some land for another cow... So, over time, if some manage poorly then maybe eventually one will have most or all of the land and the others have dead cows.

What then??? You going to divide it "evenly" AGAIN??
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:25 PM  
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hippies?

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Originally Posted by MRB View Post
These poor "occupy wall street" so-n-so's dont seem to have any organization or disiplin what so ever. They kind of remind me of the hippies around the Haight Ashbury district in S.F. during the late 60's and early 70's.
In Portland OWS left the park where they camp at 4AM to allow 14,000 marathoners it's use.

Occupy Wall Street: Increased Organization, Looming Challenges
Kanye West Visits Occupy Wall Street; Cold Weather Looms - TIME NewsFeed

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As Occupy Wall Street enters its fourth week, the movement appears to be gaining strength. But what's next for the stalwarts at Zuccotti Park?

While all three major stock-market indices have soared to their biggest gains in weeks, Occupy Wall Street saw a boost in numbers on Columbus Day, thanks in part to visits from big-name celebrities. Kanye West, back in the U.S. after unveiling his clothing line at Paris Fashion Week, showed up to the protest with hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons, who has been to Zuccotti Park before and has said he is trying to organize a large march on Oct. 15.

Warm weather kept hundreds of people at the park later than usual. The numbers of protesters who "occupy" the park ? that is, sleep there overnight ? has grown, but not nearly as fast as the number who come during the day and stay well into the night.

At the camp's aid station, a volunteer who gave his name as Kat organized medical supplies. Kat explained that he rides the ferry from Staten Island whenever he doesn't have work and volunteers his skills in wilderness first aid, to help care for the blisters, cuts and colds that come from living outside. Kat praised the occupiers, saying those who are living in the park have kept the protest's momentum alive. "The only thing that keeps this moving is the sheer tenacity of these people," Kat said. "It's clumsy and slow, but they keep it going."

On Oct. 7, as the crowd swelled before the weekend marches, Jess Horner stood on a park wall in a suit. Horner, a licensed clinical social worker, earned a master's degree in social work from Columbia University but has been unemployed for the better part of a year. Every day, when she finishes another round of job interviews, she comes to the park and holds a sign that reads "Licensed Social Worker with No Job, No Health Care and Thousands of $ in Student Debt." "This is part of my job search," Horner said. "I come here [and] meet and connect with people with similar ideals," including protesting major cuts in social programs that focus on the poorest and highest-risk people.

As Occupy Wall Street becomes more organized and attracts more people like Horner and Kat, the movement will be challenged. Last week's cold rains gave way to a second round of unseasonably warm weather, but the cold, wet weather is soon to return. While the protesters have come up with methods to deal with the rain, many said they were worried that the bitter cold sure to come this winter will whittle the occupiers down to a devoted few. Mayor Michael Bloomberg said he thinks the weather will drive the protesters out but that in the meantime, they are allowed to stay. "This is the place where you can protest,? Bloomberg said at a Columbus Day parade.
The Nation: Wall St. Protests Will Shape Politics
The Nation: Wall St. Protests Will Shape Politics : NPR

Quote:
When the organizers of Occupy Wall Street first gathered to discuss their plan of action, the strategy that resonated most came from those who had occupied squares in Madrid and Athens, Tunis and Cairo. According to David Graeber, one of Occupy Wall Street's organizers, "they explained that the model that seemed to work was to take something that seemed to be public space, reclaim it, and build up an organization and headquarters around [it]."

Six weeks later, on September 17, the occupation in downtown New York began, with scant attention, minimal and often derisive media coverage, and little expectation that it would light a spark where others had not. Now, in its fourth week, Occupy Wall Street has the quality of an exploding star: It is gathering energy in enormous and potent quantities, and propelling it outward to all corners of the country.

The protesters in the nascent movement have been criticized for being too decentralized and lacking a clear list of demands. But they are bearing witness to the corruption of our politics; if they made demands to those in power, it would suggest those in power could do something about it. This contradicts what is, perhaps, their most compelling point: that our institutions and politicians serve the top 1 percent, not the other 99.

The movement doesn't need a policy or legislative agenda to send its message. The thrust of what it seeks ? fueled both by anger and deep principles?has moral clarity. It wants corporate money out of politics. It wants the widening gap of income inequality to be narrowed substantially. And it wants meaningful solutions to the jobless crisis. In short, it wants a system that works for the 99 percent. Already Occupy Wall Street has sparked a conversation about reforms far more substantial than the stunted debate in Washington. Its energy will supercharge the arduous work other organizations have been doing for years, amplifying their actions as well as their agendas.

Occupy Wall Street is now in more than 800 cities and counting. Each encampment has its own character, from thousands marching in San Francisco to a handful gathering in Boise. These are authentic grassroots operations, so each one will reflect the local culture of protest while reproducing what seems right from the original.

Republicans have reacted bitterly.
The American Revolution Began Sept 17th
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Old 10-12-2011, 01:43 PM  
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:07 PM  
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Thats a good one!
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:32 PM  
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It would cost NYC a lot just to provide pooper-scoopers.
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