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Old 01-20-2011, 03:03 PM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
I think that this entire thread is a great example of why we need to repeal this law and completely re-do it. Everyone has something that they don't like about it, or something that they just plain don't know. It was rushed upon us, despite most Americans being against it, and it needs to take a step back.
and when will that happen? we have had these issues for a very long time. if this was repealed it WILL be another decade at least before any possibility of another bill

you want to wait until everyone is satisfied with every part, you may as well say you want nothing to change, ever. Any change of this magnitude is going to be a big change, people don't like change even if it will help them in the long run.

Especially with a divided senate and house, there is no such thing as a bill that could please both. And the bill the republicans presented was the biggest piece of garbage ever, yes both sides throw statements around about working for the other guys but the republicans plan if you read it you will see it appears as if a bunch of insurance companies and mdrug companies sat down and wrote their wish lists, no legal restrictions, only have to lobby in one state, for all practical purposes can't be sued.....

so yes let's dismiss a 90% solution to have a "never gonna happen" solution, brilliant, absolutely brialliant
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I agree our healthcare needs some help, but I don't think socialism is the place to look for it.
now if only that is what was presented, the bill we ended up with is so far away from socialism the statement you made is absurd, does this have government plans that everyone is on? no, doctors employed by the government? no they still have their own practices. Insurance companies still exist and run similarly, yes there are now MINIMUM levels of coverage required but that is a far cry from socialism
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I can only hope a few Dem's will be wise enough to take a chance on upsetting some of their colleagues by saying those forbidden words, "Maybe we should think about this..."
and then we can continue to have the same problems we have no for the next 20 years because we aren't happy with a solution that not every ignorant person sees as 100% perfect
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Respectfully, no one is entitled to anything they didn't earn.
America says otherwise, we are a nation of people with rights, and the right to live and the right to live healthy are things that as anation we need to decide on
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And we got that way by having the freest nation on earth where people could invent and innovate and earn their wealth. Encumbering taxation leads to stagnation, and establishing an entitlement or dependency mentality results in idleness.
freest? by what definition? many comparisons have us quite lagging on the freedom scale. what about freedom to retire? change jobs? and still have health care our current system is similar to slavery in that if you need healthcare you have to stay at your master's (employers) side
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Then why do foreigners -- including heads of state in socialist countries where their health care is "free" -- come here for care?
what is it with you and socialism? yes wealthy people from poorer countries will come here and yes we have a good health system for those that have access to it, but we have such a great system because we spend about 20% more GDP on it then pretty much any developed country while we exclude 1/6 of our population from having coverage so when you factor that in it's amazing our healthcare system is not tremendously better

If any other country spent as much or denied care to 1/6 of their population they would probably have similar care quality
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So rather than cut off their free ride, you'd prefer the government stick it to everyone? I don't agree.
cutting off free rides is not gonna happen, we are not going to let a hunshot victim die because he can't provide proof of coverage, we are more advanced of a society then that, but being as it is, someone has to pay
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If you want health care costs to plummet, bring about tort reform,
so they become immune to lawsuits, great idea!!! no company should be liable for it's mistakes
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allow insurance companies to operate outside their home states
excellent so they can all move like the credit card companies did to just a couple of states with little to no regulation/consumer protection laws since all plans have to go by the selling states standards, not the consumer's states. (the republicans plan even included the disclaimer that said exactly that)
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post


I know we are trying to solve a difficult (perhaps impossible) issue here. There are just a couple of things that I think we need to avoid.

-Waste of services. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the less people have to pay for a service, the more they will use it (whether they need too or not). I think we see a lot of that in our current system also.
yes if my insurer dropped the price for getting blood work done I would be in there aevery week!!! get real, health care isn't some resource that most people will abuse if they have access to it
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-Control over our lives from Government. I believe that whenever the government gets more involved with somethinng that is the result.(the government is also not the most efficient at much of anything)
depends on the level, having the government collect tax money for roads and then they build the roads either by building it themselves or hiring contractors works pretty well compared to a toll system on every road

Insurance can work the same way with the government buying plans in bulk and then people buying them from the government to get the same bulk rates and protections that employer based coverage has
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-Encouraging dependance on our government. (results in the above)

-Raising costs for employers. This results in a shift between cost/benifit of hiring additional employees. (especially right now.)
and why we should have never had healthcare tied to emplyers, that has been one of the biggest mistakes EVER
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Some things that would greatly improve our current system.
-Do something about the overtreating of patients! (This greatly increases costs).
This is often due to fear of liability from healthcare providers.
well then they should stop screwing up
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-More community assistance. Churches,
yes god could heal all of us much cheaper then hospitals, why isn't he stepping up?
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family, etc. I know, that starts getting into many other social issues as well.
we could count on charity for all kinds of things but at some point it becomes too much and the government has to do some of it, that is why we created them
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I think the root cause of many problems in our society is the subsidizing of some peoples existance. I know that what I am about to say will likely ignite a firestorm but............................................... ....................................


If someone needs their existance subsidized then they have no business having children.

Don't ask me "well, what would you like to do about it??" because this is one of those situations where there is an elephant in the room but noone is willing to shoot it. I'm not even going to waste my breath on that.
but you just did, and it is a waste to consider things that are just never going to happen in a civilized society, yes we could stay weeding out the population getting rid of anyone who isn't producing enough economic benefits to the community, cull the diseased or those with bad genticis, 200 years from now would our gene pool be better? have a stronger economic drive? yes but is that the kind of society you want to live in? do you want to be the first to have the genetic test to make sure you can reproduce with a very low chance of having some genetic trait that could lead you to be castrated if it's likely your kids will just be a drain on society? That's not a world I want to live in, you?
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Those things being said, there are individual situations that are good arguments for both sides. I just don't want our country to fall down this slope. It is sad.

Enough of my ramblings.....
fall down the slope of having citizens with access to reliable healthcare? that would be horrible
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:09 PM  
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My goodness! Long post!

So you agree with our government passing laws that the majority of Americans don't like or support? "Big Brother knows best", right?

That sounds awwfulll socialist to me...
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:18 PM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
My goodness! Long post!

So you agree with our government passing laws that the majority of Americans don't like or support? "Big Brother knows best", right?

That sounds awwfulll socialist to me...
yes long post, and I noticed you didn't reply to any of it. Are you really satisfied with the status quo? because if this was repealed that is all we will get for the next decade or two

except what you said isn't true, did you even read the first post? if you want even majority support from the PEOPLE on any bill this massive it is NEVER going to happen, that is why we elect people to represent us and solve our problems and spend the time to cut through the bs and find out what is really going on.

especially when you look at people who are actually informed and not buying crap like "death panels" there is a bit of support. I know the death panels sounds like beating a dead horse but there is still a large portion of the population who think that was really in there.
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:39 PM  
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That poll was a joke. They surveyed just 1,001 voters, all of whom weren't registered.

AP Erroneously Reports that 'Opposition' to Obamacare is Easing | The Weekly Standard

It's Democratic media trying to say "Hey man, just let this Obamacare thing happen, everyone loves Obama" when the reality is, his "crown jewel achievement" was, and is, against the will of the American people.
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Old 01-20-2011, 03:59 PM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
That poll was a joke. They surveyed just 1,001 voters, all of whom weren't registered.

AP Erroneously Reports that 'Opposition' to Obamacare is Easing | The Weekly Standard


It's Democratic media trying to say "Hey man, just let this Obamacare thing happen, everyone loves Obama" when the reality is, his "crown jewel achievement" was, and is, against the will of the American people.
note: you still hadn't answered my question to you
regardless of the polls we did vote for a democratic president and leaders, they came up with a democratic solution and when you look at the polls you resented you will say the only groups that want it repealed are the republicans and conservatives, the democrats one, got the leadership they wanted and from the poll shows that democrats are fairly happy with the results.

I still think that it really comes down to knowing what is in it and not going by a parties attitude towards it with so many people on the republican side wanting to repeal it completely do they really know what is in it? why not just repeal what they don't like? or are they just following what Glenn Beck and the republican leaders want them to do?

Against the will? or against the understanding of the american people? when HALF the population polled believed that the death panels were a real thing I don't think those are the same people who should have any say in any healthcare poll.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:58 PM  
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I'm glad you brought the election up. I think that when Democrats got destroyed in the midterms, you'd think that maybe they'd learn a lesson on what the American people think of the job they've been doing. Yes, we elected a Democratic president. Two years later, we clearly showed our regret for putting the Dem's in power. Most of the Dem's campaigning for re-election in the mid-terms didn't even want Obama in their state to campaign with them, because the opinion of his work was/is so low.

And just for the record, not one Republican has gone for the bill; however, three Democrats did vote for repealing. So some have seen the light.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't repeal the entire thing - and that we should just pick and choose what to keep and what to get rid of. However, unfortunately, that's not yours or my decision. But if it comes down to repealing or keeping the entire thing, I'll definitely go for repeal.

I did skim through your above crazy-long post, but I'm bad at telling what's rhetorical and what you really want answered. What did you really want answered that I missed?
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:33 AM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
America says otherwise, we are a nation of people with rights, and the right to live and the right to live healthy are things that as anation we need to decide onfreest? by what definition? many comparisons have us quite lagging on the freedom scale. what about freedom to retire? change jobs? and still have healthcare
I am referring to the freedoms offered by God and our country. I do not recall any of that you mention except the right to live being in the bill of rights or Constitution (or are those merely "historical documents").
Freedom in this country is the freedom to make your own way and seek prosperity. Not the freedom FROM having to make your own way.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:38 AM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
.... health care isn't some resource that most people will abuse if they have access to it


Oh, and the Medicaid represents the folks who have ("have access to")
"insurance" at no cost. And this bill will result in much more of that. What do you think will happen?
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:50 AM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
.......... yes we could stay weeding out the population getting rid of anyone who isn't producing enough economic benefits to the community, cull the diseased or those with bad genticis,
I am not talking about actively "weeding out" anyone. That's just silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
200 years from now would our gene pool be better? have a stronger economic drive? ,
Good point there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
....do you want to be the first to have the genetic test to make sure you can reproduce with a very low chance of having some genetic trait that could lead you to be castrated if it's likely your kids will just be a drain on society?
Genetic test?? Really?? Again, that's just silly. I would never suggest any such thing.

Do you really think it makes absolutely no sense to say that if someone cannot fully support themselves then they cannot fully support having children?? Is that a ridiculous statement?

Oh, anyone here see the movie Idiocracy? It shows a (perhaps exaggerated) view of what direction we are going. Oh, it's a comedy. Look it up!

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Old 01-21-2011, 07:20 AM  
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Bristol, Tennessee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
I'm glad you brought the election up. I think that when Democrats got destroyed in the midterms, you'd think that maybe they'd learn a lesson on what the American people think of the job they've been doing. Yes, we elected a Democratic president. Two years later, we clearly showed our regret for putting the Dem's in power. Most of the Dem's campaigning for re-election in the mid-terms didn't even want Obama in their state to campaign with them, because the opinion of his work was/is so low.

And just for the record, not one Republican has gone for the bill; however, three Democrats did vote for repealing. So some have seen the light.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't repeal the entire thing - and that we should just pick and choose what to keep and what to get rid of. However, unfortunately, that's not yours or my decision. But if it comes down to repealing or keeping the entire thing, I'll definitely go for repeal.

I did skim through your above crazy-long post, but I'm bad at telling what's rhetorical and what you really want answered. What did you really want answered that I missed?
note: you still have not answered my question

I will restate it here and simplifiy it. Between these two options which one is preferable? 20 more years of our existing healthcare issues and problems, or "ObamaCare"?

and 3 democrats does not equal a significant amount

Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I am referring to the freedoms offered by God and our country. I do not recall any of that you mention except the right to live being in the bill of rights or Constitution (or are those merely "historical documents").
Freedom in this country is the freedom to make your own way and seek prosperity. Not the freedom FROM having to make your own way.
freedom offered by god? we are a secular country
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post


Oh, and the Medicaid represents the folks who have ("have access to")
"insurance" at no cost. And this bill will result in much more of that. What do you think will happen?
so the people sick enough to be eligible for medicare need medicare? amazing
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