Go Back   CityProfile.com Forum - Local City and State Discussion Forums > General Discussion > National Politics / Debate
Click Here to Login

Reply
Old 08-19-2012, 05:36 PM  
Senior Member

Greenville, SC
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,141 | Kudos: +188
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
so in summary, you fear them. you need to understand there is a difference between pedophilia and being gay, there is a huge leap there but you pretend it is the same thing, which is incredibly shameful and small minded, sorry but it is, it is two seperate things you are putting together and pretending there is a link.
I do not want the abomination that is homosexuality presented as normal to my children. Sorry.
Nothing you can say will convince me that god intended for homosexuality to be "normal". His word dictates otherwise.
__________________

__________________
"A society that puts equality ... ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom."

--Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2012, 08:01 PM  
Senior Member

Kent, Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,237 | Kudos: +67
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I do not want the abomination that is homosexuality presented as normal to my children. Sorry.
Nothing you can say will convince me that god intended for homosexuality to be "normal". His word dictates otherwise.
"Yes, boys, I know you would like to go camping with your friends and learn a variety of things like Emergency Preparedness, Environmental Science, Lifesaving, Wilderness Survival, First Aid, Personal Management, Entrepreneurship, Shotgun Shooting, Engineering, Pioneering, and dozens of other skills in the course of earning merit badges, but the fact is that one of the other kids in the troop has two moms, and they want to volunteer to help teach these skills to scouts in the troop. And, well, that's pretty gay, so you can't participate."
__________________

__________________
We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 05:50 AM  
Senior Member

Greenville, SC
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,141 | Kudos: +188
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
The public has no interest in the private affairs of individuals.
If truly private, then I don't see it as my concern. However, private is not how it is being promoted.

Dictionary.com:

"pri?vate   /ˈpraɪvɪt/ Show Spelled[prahy-vit] adjective
3. confined to or intended only for the persons immediately concerned; confidential: a private meeting.
4. personal and not publicly expressed: one's private feelings.

If private then noone should know. Right? If noone knows how can they complain or have a problem with it. Don't call it private if you don't mean PRIVATE.

In your previous example, the homosexuality must have been flaunted in some fashion for it to clearly be apparent. I am simply against it being presented as normal.
__________________
"A society that puts equality ... ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom."

--Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 08:44 AM  
Senior Member

Kent, Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,237 | Kudos: +67
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
If truly private, then I don't see it as my concern. However, private is not how it is being promoted.

Dictionary.com:

"pri?vate   /ˈpraɪvɪt/ Show Spelled[prahy-vit] adjective
3. confined to or intended only for the persons immediately concerned; confidential: a private meeting.
4. personal and not publicly expressed: one's private feelings.

If private then noone should know. Right? If noone knows how can they complain or have a problem with it. Don't call it private if you don't mean PRIVATE.

In your previous example, the homosexuality must have been flaunted in some fashion for it to clearly be apparent. I am simply against it being presented as normal.
I'll note that you presented the third and fourth definition of "private" from dictionary.com, and I'll note that your source includes a total of 5 definitions:

1. belonging to some particular person: private property.
2. pertaining to or affecting a particular person or a small group of persons; individual; personal: for your private satisfaction.
3. confined to or intended only for the persons immediately concerned; confidential: a private meeting.
4. personal and not publicly expressed: one's private feelings.
5. not holding public office or employment: private citizens.

The most applicable definition as I used the word "private" is actually #2, although the sense is very similar to that of the 1st and the exemplar in the 5th definitions. My statement was "The public has no interest in the private affairs of individuals."

My decision to walk down the sidewalk is of little concern to the general public. They have no authority to stop me. My choice in a mate is my private decision, a private affair. Announcing these decisions to the general public does not grant the public any authority to compel me to change these decisions. These are my private affairs, and the public has no interest in these decisions; no authority to compel me to make these decisions.

Sure, I would agree with you that homosexuals should be prohibited from bringing their bedroom activities out on their front lawn. But heterosexuals should be similarly restricted. Lewdness, public indecency, and similar laws should be enforced.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about statements like "This is my spouse" or two people holding hands in public. You want to interfere with the right of an individual to present this statement or perform this action. You apparently don't want certain people to make this claim in your children's presence.

Are you saying that homosexuals shouldn't have the right to say they are gay? Or are you saying that you would boycott organizations that tolerate such behavior? Would you allow your kids to participate in 4H? Would you allow your daughters to participate in Girl Scouts? These two organizations don't discriminate on sexual orientation. Even if they don't have a gay leader now, any time the subject comes up they will suggest tolerance over exclusion. What happens when a kid with gay or bi parents joins your kids' youth groups and the parents want to volunteer?
__________________
We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 09:07 AM  
Senior Member

Greenville, SC
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,141 | Kudos: +188
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
I'll note that you presented the third and fourth definition of "private" from dictionary.com, and I'll note that your source includes a total of 5 definitions:

1. belonging to some particular person: private property.
2. pertaining to or affecting a particular person or a small group of persons; individual; personal: for your private satisfaction.
3. confined to or intended only for the persons immediately concerned; confidential: a private meeting.
4. personal and not publicly expressed: one's private feelings.
5. not holding public office or employment: private citizens.

The most applicable definition as I used the word "private" is actually #2, although the sense is very similar to that of the 1st and the exemplar in the 5th definitions. My statement was "The public has no interest in the private affairs of individuals."

My decision to walk down the sidewalk is of little concern to the general public. They have no authority to stop me. My choice in a mate is my private decision, a private affair. Announcing these decisions to the general public does not grant the public any authority to compel me to change these decisions. These are my private affairs, and the public has no interest in these decisions; no authority to compel me to make these decisions.

Sure, I would agree with you that homosexuals should be prohibited from bringing their bedroom activities out on their front lawn. But heterosexuals should be similarly restricted. Lewdness, public indecency, and similar laws should be enforced.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about statements like "This is my spouse" or two people holding hands in public. You want to interfere with the right of an individual to present this statement or perform this action. You apparently don't want certain people to make this claim in your children's presence.

Are you saying that homosexuals shouldn't have the right to say they are gay? Or are you saying that you would boycott organizations that tolerate such behavior? Would you allow your kids to participate in 4H? Would you allow your daughters to participate in Girl Scouts? These two organizations don't discriminate on sexual orientation. Even if they don't have a gay leader now, any time the subject comes up they will suggest tolerance over exclusion. What happens when a kid with gay or bi parents joins your kids' youth groups and the parents want to volunteer?
Frankly, our difference on the issue will never be resolved in a way to make one or the other happy. The scenarios you are for promote a normalcy to a behavior that is not normal (I know, to you that is an "opinion")...

To answer your question about people having the right to say they are gay... I am fine with that the same as I am fine with someone stating that they are an alcoholic. I can be fine with someone saying that and at the same time not being in favor of binge drinking or getting sloppy drunk.... People say at AA meetings all the time "... I'm an alcoholic". Does that answer your question? Again, your other questions present the issue as a civil rights issue which it is notl. It is not about "discrimination".
Would it be discrimination if I didn't want a diagnosed or self proclaiming kleptomaniac to help pack my things before a move? That is just one example. I tell you, it is a fundamental difference in which we define the issue differently. You see it as civil rights, I see it as making "normal" what is not.

Another fact is I guess you can make anything normal if you present it that way enough, or enough people proclaim it as normal. I think that deep down though, we all really know that it is not normal to our design.
__________________
"A society that puts equality ... ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom."

--Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 09:57 AM  
Senior Member

Kent, Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,237 | Kudos: +67
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Frankly, our difference on the issue will never be resolved in a way to make one or the other happy. The scenarios you are for promote a normalcy to a behavior that is not normal (I know, to you that is an "opinion")...
There's nothing "normal" about the Westboro Baptist Church, yet we tolerate their speech even as we decry it as evil.

You're looking at other people's behavior and judging it as "normal" or "abnormal". Unless you're willing to apply indecency laws or something like this, the only "normalcy" you should be looking at is you own behavior. They have every "right" to pursue their own happiness and you have no right to stop them.

Technically, that's an opinion, but that opinion is the fundamental basis of our society. Our Wiccan brethren sum it up rather succinctly: "An it harm none, do what ye will." The Golden Rule applies: Unless you are willing to submit to gay people ordering you not to reveal your orientation, you have no right to compel them the conceal theirs.

Thomas Paine said "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." This suggests we must separate our feelings about an individual's behavior. We must dispassionately ensure that he is treated fairly and justly, regardless of whether he is a national hero or a despicable criminal.


As far as the choices you make for yourself and your kids, I'm still curious as to what you would do. Would you actually pull your kids out of a youth group because they tolerated homosexuality, like 4H or the Girl Scouts, even if there were no gay leaders currently in the unit? Would you pull your kids out if gay people joined? If you saw a gay couple in a grocery store, would you abandon your cart and go elsewhere?
__________________
We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 10:10 AM  
Senior Member

Greenville, SC
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,141 | Kudos: +188
Quote:
Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
As far as the choices you make for yourself and your kids, I'm still curious as to what you would do. Would you actually pull your kids out of a youth group because they tolerated homosexuality, like 4H or the Girl Scouts, even if there were no gay leaders currently in the unit? Would you pull your kids out if gay people joined? If you saw a gay couple in a grocery store, would you abandon your cart and go elsewhere?
As a general answer to your questions my answer is probably no.
And your reference to the westboro people... No they are not normal, or even normal christians. Their behavior is not biblical. I don't believe anyone is promoting them as normal. The Bible says to love thy neighbor (NOT the same as condoning certain behaviors). I do not hate nomosexuals. Do not misunderstand. The westboro folks are a shameful, hateful bunch. As long as we are not on our way to promoting homosexuality as normal I am fine with it.
__________________
"A society that puts equality ... ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom."

--Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2012, 08:19 PM  
Senior Member

Kent, Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,237 | Kudos: +67
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
As a general answer to your questions my answer is probably no.
And your reference to the westboro people... No they are not normal, or even normal christians. Their behavior is not biblical. I don't believe anyone is promoting them as normal.
Any comment on the WBC is incomplete without a hat tip to free speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of assembly, all vital components of both democracy and pursuit of happiness, and it is these vital components I'm promoting.
Quote:

The Bible says to love thy neighbor (NOT the same as condoning certain behaviors). I do not hate nomosexuals. Do not misunderstand. The westboro folks are a shameful, hateful bunch. As long as we are not on our way to promoting homosexuality as normal I am fine with it.
You don't have to promote it, and you can stand up against those who would promote it. In case there is any confusion, I'm not attempting to link your position with that of the WBC. I don't think that at all.

Going back to the issue of BSA, they take a stand against homosexuality and atheism. Current BSA policies would reject a volunteer like Alan Turing, a brilliant, inspiring man who played a pivotal role in winning WWII; who essentially created the entire field of Computer Science; and who rejected the notion of deities and preferred the company of men. But, these same policies would tolerate god-fearing heterosexual like Fred Phelps, the head of the WBC, and one of the most despicable non-criminals we can think of.

If Alan Turing was the local counselor for the Computers merit badge, would you have a problem with your kids earning that badge from him, the father of computer science?

I certainly wouldn't let my kids earn the American Heritage, Citizenship in the Community/Nation/World or Law badges from Fred Phelps.
__________________
We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 03:04 AM  
Member

Massillon, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 49 | Kudos: +13
Wow. Seems like every time I get on this site it is mainly heated debates...

As a sideline spectator, I would like to point out a few observations..

Leadarrows, you were the first to throw insults, in post 4. The comment by Havasu: "Regarding mental illnesses, one only has to look in the mirror to see such an acute case." To me it is pretty much a saying like the one about being careful "judging others, lest you be judged yourself" (or something of that order)... In other words, look at yourself and the things you have done that would make you just as wrong as those you are condemning. Every tone I got from your words was of anger. The mentioning of how you'd kill your brother for what he did to your nieces, more hate. As for the issue of the student and teacher, it may have been consensual, even if it was never admitted. I do have to agree with you that this whole political correctness has gotten out of hand in ways, like how it used to be PC to call them "Handicapped", but now that is wrong - they are "mentally challenged". Means the same thing, but I feel people got to associating the term "handicapped" to anyone not "normal" in a way that it could have been offensive, so they had to come up with something new. May have been more of a denial thing by those involved - "my child is not 'HANDICAPPED", they are only mentally challenged!!" (or "physically challenged"). Either way, the meaning will never change, just the terminology.

Yello - I have been through the Scouting experience from a Wolf Cub Scout (was before the Tiger Cubs were created) all the way through to being an Eagle Scout and then an Assistant Scoutmaster. About all I can say is that the best you can do is find a troop where the Scoutmasters are Hetero, and have your child join that troop. Most troops never really interacted that much with each other unless they were neighboring troops and in the same school district, since the scouts all knew each other from school. As for the fear of the Homo leaders doing anything with your son, like others have said, there is a difference between homo and pedo. Most homo couples I know of are just like you and your wife, where they aren't thinking of doing anything with someone else - especially underage. As for your views of what is right and wrong, if that is how you want your child to be raised, that is your right - they are your children, raise them how you wish. Can I offer some advise though? Educate them on the whole homo issue. Don't ignore it or deny that it exists. They WILL find out for themselves that it is out there, and then they will start learning and making their own opinions of it too.

Rival - About your comment about BSA being against homo and atheism, you have to remember that the BSA is primarily sponsored by churches, based with a lot of Christian values and ideas. Some are Catholic, others are Protestant, but still based on God and Country, whether the PC people like it or not.

Personally, I feel that since it is a "private" non-profit organization, the BSA should NOT be REQUIRED to allow people who they feel do not align with what they stand for. That would be like requiring a Catholic church to accept abortions and homo people and rewrite their total beliefs for that. If it is something that requires a membership and you pay dues, then it is your choice to join that group, and go by what they believe.

As for the GSA allowing male leaders, last I knew they do, EXCEPT for camping. It has been a few years since I have heard any official ruling, but the GSA was so strict that the only male allowed on the campgrounds for summer camp was the camp ranger. Another rule was that the parent that dropped off the child was the one that had to pick them up - too many issues with divorced/non-custodial parents picking up the kid when they were not allowed to or something like that.
Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 12:49 PM  
American
 
leadarrows's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 251 | Kudos: +61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutlass327 View Post
Wow. Seems like every time I get on this site it is mainly heated debates...

As a sideline spectator, I would like to point out a few observations..

Leadarrows, you were the first to throw insults, in post 4. The comment by Havasu: "Regarding mental illnesses, one only has to look in the mirror to see such an acute case." To me it is pretty much a saying like the one about being careful "judging others, lest you be judged yourself" (or something of that order)... In other words, look at yourself and the things you have done that would make you just as wrong as those you are condemning. Every tone I got from your words was of anger. The mentioning of how you'd kill your brother for what he did to your nieces, more hate. As for the issue of the student and teacher, it may have been consensual, even if it was never admitted. I do have to agree with you that this whole political correctness has gotten out of hand in ways, like how it used to be PC to call them "Handicapped", but now that is wrong - they are "mentally challenged". Means the same thing, but I feel people got to associating the term "handicapped" to anyone not "normal" in a way that it could have been offensive, so they had to come up with something new. May have been more of a denial thing by those involved - "my child is not 'HANDICAPPED", they are only mentally challenged!!" (or "physically challenged"). Either way, the meaning will never change, just the terminology.

Yello - I have been through the Scouting experience from a Wolf Cub Scout (was before the Tiger Cubs were created) all the way through to being an Eagle Scout and then an Assistant Scoutmaster. About all I can say is that the best you can do is find a troop where the Scoutmasters are Hetero, and have your child join that troop. Most troops never really interacted that much with each other unless they were neighboring troops and in the same school district, since the scouts all knew each other from school. As for the fear of the Homo leaders doing anything with your son, like others have said, there is a difference between homo and pedo. Most homo couples I know of are just like you and your wife, where they aren't thinking of doing anything with someone else - especially underage. As for your views of what is right and wrong, if that is how you want your child to be raised, that is your right - they are your children, raise them how you wish. Can I offer some advise though? Educate them on the whole homo issue. Don't ignore it or deny that it exists. They WILL find out for themselves that it is out there, and then they will start learning and making their own opinions of it too.

Rival - About your comment about BSA being against homo and atheism, you have to remember that the BSA is primarily sponsored by churches, based with a lot of Christian values and ideas. Some are Catholic, others are Protestant, but still based on God and Country, whether the PC people like it or not.

Personally, I feel that since it is a "private" non-profit organization, the BSA should NOT be REQUIRED to allow people who they feel do not align with what they stand for. That would be like requiring a Catholic church to accept abortions and homo people and rewrite their total beliefs for that. If it is something that requires a membership and you pay dues, then it is your choice to join that group, and go by what they believe.

As for the GSA allowing male leaders, last I knew they do, EXCEPT for camping. It has been a few years since I have heard any official ruling, but the GSA was so strict that the only male allowed on the campgrounds for summer camp was the camp ranger. Another rule was that the parent that dropped off the child was the one that had to pick them up - too many issues with divorced/non-custodial parents picking up the kid when they were not allowed to or something like that.
So you say..... yet you just judged me...imagine that...

Yeah I do hate child molesters...and those who would condemn me for it...So what...You have a problem with people who hate child molesters do you?

The sickness of homosexuality is a mental illness...calling me a hater for recognizing the obvious will not change that simple truth. No hate is needed to speak the truth. Avoiding the truth helps no one. I won't be silenced like so many have just for fear of being called a hater or other things. Sooner or later the truth stands alone as what really matters.
__________________

__________________
Life's A HOOT!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   CityProfile.com Forum - Local City and State Discussion Forums > General Discussion > National Politics / Debate
Bookmark this Page!

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Suggested Threads

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.