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Old 01-28-2013, 08:09 AM  
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
After work I have heard dentists discuss difficult extractions, I wonder what abortionists discuss? How do their kids respond when asked, "what does your dad do?", then again maybe they don't have kids.
"Today I worked on a 15-year-old girl who goes to a nearby school. She believed the rhythm method was an effective form of birth control, because four of her bubble-headed friends were using it and none of them had gotten pregnant. Her parents believed in abstinence-only education and were sufficiently puritanical about sex that she feared being thrown out of her home if they learned she was pregnant. Today, I kept a young woman in high school and on a path to graduation and college. I saved her from the devastating consequences of a youthful mistake. Today, a young woman paid $500 to undo a mistake made in the heat of passion; a mistake that could have been avoided had she been fully cognizant of the risks and dangers of the actions her hormonal teenage body asked her to make. Today, a young woman paid a very high price, in dollars and emotions, to learn a simple lesson. Tomorrow, that young woman will pass along that lesson to her four bubble-headed friends. Hopefully, I never hear from her or her friends again."

Or perhaps:

"Today, I worked with a woman who had been raped two weeks ago. The cuts and bruises from her brutal attack had not yet healed completely, and today she found she was pregnant. I'd like 10 minutes alone with a propane torch and the son-of-a-***** who did it."

Maybe:

"Today I worked with a married mother of two. She had nearly died carrying her first child, and her second had to be delivered prematurely, lest both of them die. She's been religious about her birth control for the past 5 years, but it recently failed. She thought about the prospect of her two kids growing up in a broken, grief-stricken home, a home without a mother, and she made a tough decision."

Probably a lot of things along those lines.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:45 AM  
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So, the answer is to kill 1.5 million or so babies per year?
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:15 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
"Today I worked on a 15-year-old girl who goes to a nearby school. She believed the rhythm method was an effective form of birth control, because four of her bubble-headed friends were using it and none of them had gotten pregnant. Her parents believed in abstinence-only education and were sufficiently puritanical about sex that she feared being thrown out of her home if they learned she was pregnant. Today, I kept a young woman in high school and on a path to graduation and college. I saved her from the devastating consequences of a youthful mistake. Today, a young woman paid $500 to undo a mistake made in the heat of passion; a mistake that could have been avoided had she been fully cognizant of the risks and dangers of the actions her hormonal teenage body asked her to make. Today, a young woman paid a very high price, in dollars and emotions, to learn a simple lesson. Tomorrow, that young woman will pass along that lesson to her four bubble-headed friends. Hopefully, I never hear from her or her friends again."

Or perhaps:

"Today, I worked with a woman who had been raped two weeks ago. The cuts and bruises from her brutal attack had not yet healed completely, and today she found she was pregnant. I'd like 10 minutes alone with a propane torch and the son-of-a-***** who did it."

Maybe:

"Today I worked with a married mother of two. She had nearly died carrying her first child, and her second had to be delivered prematurely, lest both of them die. She's been religious about her birth control for the past 5 years, but it recently failed. She thought about the prospect of her two kids growing up in a broken, grief-stricken home, a home without a mother, and she made a tough decision."

Probably a lot of things along those lines.
Oh okay, I hear you.... The young girl isn't to blame. It was her hormones' fault. Really? Oh, and I'll bet those examples are NOT the main circumstances around abortioin. Maybe the one with the HS student. Except most of the time it is likely something like going back to her friends and saying "yeah, we didn't use protection and I got pregnant... All I had to do was a quick doctor's visit and me and my boyfriends friend(s) were back at it that weekend!! yay!", "Tee hee!"...

I'm sort of kidding on that last part.... I think what would be a more effective example for the "friends" would be to see irresponsible behavior having consequences. (I know, "a child shouldn't be a consequence")... I just think no repercussion is not a way to effect a behavior. Blaming "hormones" isn't a way either. Do you honestly think that the reason a large number of youth don't get pregnant is because they don't have the same hormones?? Or do you think it might be that they were raised with a different moral standard? Or taught more responsibility?
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:16 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Oh okay, I hear you.... The young girl isn't to blame. It was her hormones' fault. Really?
No, I pointed the blame in that hypothetical situation at her lack of knowledge about the unreliability of the rhythm method. I blamed her sexual ignorance, not her sexual urges.
Quote:

Oh, and I'll bet those examples are NOT the main circumstances around abortioin. Maybe the one with the HS student. Except most of the time it is likely something like going back to her friends and saying "yeah, we didn't use protection and I got pregnant... All I had to do was a quick doctor's visit and me and my boyfriends friend(s) were back at it that weekend!! yay!", "Tee hee!"...
And figure out how to pay the $500 bill. Lot of money for a teenager. And I haven't even touched on the emotional consequences.
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I'm sort of kidding on that last part.... I think what would be a more effective example for the "friends" would be to see irresponsible behavior having consequences. (I know, "a child shouldn't be a consequence")... I just think no repercussion is not a way to effect a behavior.
This argument works just as well (actually, better) for a prohibition on treating sexually transmitted diseases. People should have to live with the consequences of sex; they shouldn't be allowed to cure their infections. Allowing treatment of STDs does nothing but encourage irresponsible behavior.

Most of the arguments for why we *should* cure STDs also apply to support for legal abortion.

As you said, a child shouldn't be a consequence. Every child deserves to be wanted by his or her parents, and for reasons a fair bit more compelling than "teaching mommy's slutty friends a lesson." We don't need to bring an unwanted child into the world to teach that lesson.

Quote:

Blaming "hormones" isn't a way either. Do you honestly think that the reason a large number of youth don't get pregnant is because they don't have the same hormones?? Or do you think it might be that they were raised with a different moral standard? Or taught more responsibility?
I already addressed hormones - I'm not putting the blame on sexual urges, and I would side with you in arguing against anyone who would.

As far as moral standards, teenage pregnancies are highest in highly religious states. There is a direct correlation between religious conservatism and frequency of abortion. Catholicism, which preaches an opposition to birth control and support for abstinence-only education, has the highest rate of both teenage pregnancy and abortion. Atheists are among the lowest in both categories. So yeah, I'd say that kids should be raised to respect a greater moral standard, but I suspect that you and I disagree on what that standard should be.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:12 AM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
As far as moral standards, teenage pregnancies are highest in highly religious states. There is a direct correlation between religious conservatism and frequency of abortion. Catholicism, which preaches an opposition to birth control and support for abstinence-only education, has the highest rate of both teenage pregnancy and abortion. Atheists are among the lowest in both categories. So yeah, I'd say that kids should be raised to respect a greater moral standard, but I suspect that you and I disagree on what that standard should be.
I will just have to disagree with you here. Perhaps the figures may be accurate, but I believe that what you have is circumstancial evidence that on the surface shows a cause-effect relationship. I live in one of those states (South Carolina... I'm pretty sure it falls into the category you describe). True christians are not the ones with the high teen pregnancy rates and high rates of abortions. I can tell you that just from my observations during my life. I will just say this, there are many in the south who think they are christians because that is "how they grew up" or because "they go to church"... Unfortunately that is a trap that folks can fall into. Also, there are other people/cultures that drive these statistics you are using as an example.

Oh, and your comparison to STDs is just silly.

BTW I don't know much about Catholicism. That is why I am not confronting that..
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:09 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Oh, and your comparison to STDs is just silly.
On that note...

Quote:
Before penicillin was found to be effective against syphilis during World War II, sex brought with it the risk of syphilis, a disease that can cause blindness, dementia and paralysis.

Penicillin can wipe out syphilis with just one shot. As the antibiotic came into wide use in the 1950s, the number of syphilis cases and syphilis deaths plummeted. And that's when teen pregnancies and illegitimate births began to rise ? long before the invention of the birth control pill.
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:07 PM  
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The one sided media cunningly uses words to pluck heart strings for gun control by inferring that if even a few lives could be saved wouldn't gun control be worth it. However, in its support of abortion it searches out a few examples to justify abortion with no reference to the grisly sacrifice of millions of little lives under the permissive ruling.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:55 PM  
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
The one sided media cunningly uses words to pluck heart strings for gun control by inferring that if even a few lives could be saved wouldn't gun control be worth it. However, in its support of abortion it searches out a few examples to justify abortion with no reference to the grisly sacrifice of millions of little lives under the permissive ruling.
Ah, yes, blame the "one-sided media". That old chestnut.

A fetus, until it can survive the death of the mother, has more in common with a teratoma than a person.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:06 PM  
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That's absurd.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:48 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Ah, yes, blame the "one-sided media". That old chestnut.

A fetus, until it can survive the death of the mother, has more in common with a teratoma than a person.
At conception the 23 chromosomes of the sperm are combined with the 23 chromosomes of the egg to form a life with the 46 chromosomes of a human being (refer back to page 3 for weekly reports of development). The baby's DNA is unique to a new human being, familial yes but unique. The baby has a blood type usually different from its mom and its circulatory system is separate from its mom. It will live until it dies a natural death if not killed. And yes the media is one sided on the issue just as it is on gun control.
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