When you talk about eliminating public assistance, these are the things I think about. Paying out to some lazy, ungrateful slob doesn't bother me nearly as much as this woman having no option but to stay with, and keep her children living with a violent person.
The world isn't black and white. Everything is gray.
I don't believe I have said eliminate public assistance all together. I just think that more is wasted than needs to be. ALOT more. I know there are people in need that would use the assistance wisely. There are plenty of people who think they are ENTITLED to "assistance". That is a problem. True assistance is something to be appreciated. Not looked at as a subsidy. What we have are two sides of the coin, one being the ones who truly need it and the other being the rest who happen to qualify. You know that every since assistance has taken the form we know today that there are mothers who would no longer qualify if they marry. What do you think that encourages? That is just an example of the mentality that ruins it for the ones who truly need.
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"A society that puts equality ... ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom."
Check all through this quote because I answered it point by point
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival
How could Obama have brought it down if it is in better shape now than it was when he took office?
You GOTTA be kiddin' .
You keep telling me to come on down there, get an idea of the scale of the problem. If it is as bad as you seem to think it is, and it's so nice up here in Ohio, you're free to come on up. What's that? Ohio ISN'T the land of milk and honey?
No I don't, we get enough birds from Ohio who are welcomed because they come here LEGALLY
You complain about lazy people gaming the welfare system, and you criminalize people who work their asses off for less than minimum wage because less than minimum wage is better than what they had before.
You got this all wrong.... for instance, if you have a hispanic surname and are a US citizen, they steal your #'s &name and the IRS comes for back taxes thinking it's you. You have to spend money on tax experts and lawyers to clear your name.
Clueless? Nah. Dispassionate. You're too close to the "problem". Your "solution" is more of the same expensive ideas that created the problem in the first place. You don't realize that it is the fact that the "illegal" moniker is what gives them all their "advantages".
If you break a law, rather it's a litter law, or an immigration law, you are a CRIMINAL.
My solution is to remove those advantages. My solution is to work WITH human nature. The right likes to say that taxation is the greatest harm, well, show us. Tax the hell out of non-citizen workers, or invite them to leave. If you're right, these people should leave in droves. If I'm right, we'll have created a new revenue source and increased the tax base.
I am neither right, nor left, nor middle or what ever. Have no ties to or, honestly, give a rat's behind about tea todler republicans either. What I am, and have been saying all along is we must MAKE it EASIER to immigrate LEGALLY than it is illegally. Cards at the gate, hand stamp, I don't give a crap, some sort or form of Federal or INTERSTATE ID . Look, way way back in the early 1970's a coyote was paid about 500 usd PER HEAD to drive them from San Diego to Los Angeles,that's NO BORDER CROSSING!!!. I have no idea what it is today, BUT if we could make it easier and CHEAPER to come here LEGALLY then there would be few illegals. Basically, we are saying the same thing here, you're just too buisy argueing and trying to be PC to realize it.
"Throw them in jail", "gas them in ovens" - it means the same thing: Treat certain humans as worthless garbage. Worse than garbage - garbage you just dispose of. Jail, you go out of your way, spending huge amounts of taxpayer dollars just to keep an immigrant off the streets. Again, the parallels between the tea party and the Nazi party are disturbing.
So, let's open up our jails and prisons and let all the criminals on the street? Are you smoking CRACK? Have you ever had a loved one fall victom to a violent crime? WHen you speed on the highway, you pay a fine, get enough you go to jail, if I steal your property, guess what, i would need to go to jail, CRIMINALS need to be OFF the streets!!!
My last point then I'm done with this, also as I said in an earlier post on this thread, WAY BACK in the war between the US and Mexico, the US obtained these southwestern states. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was the official treaty giving these states to the US. In that treaty, the United States promises to treat all Mexican citizens living in the region obtained, as full and complete EQUAL citizens. Many of these people were people of color . . . Mestizos, Indios and Mulatos. As the US took over, these people were NOT given full and equal citizenship. They were discrimminated against, ranchos were stolen by the anglos, and they were not allowed in many cases to testify in a court of law. Therefore, since the US never lived up to that agreement, can we assume that the Treaty of Guadalupe is null and void. In fact, making these southwestern states, (excluding Texas) part of Los Estados de Unidos de MEXICO?
like I said, you sit there in Ohio with NO understanding, no roots here, no comprehension of the problems and need to open your thoughts and stop trying to be next JFK, or MLK. You are neither, they understood the problems they dealt with, you incite anger.
(AP) WASHINGTON - A month after promising to focus on deporting the most serious criminal immigrants, the Obama administration says it has rounded up nearly 3,000 criminals.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials said Wednesday they have arrested 2,901 criminal immigrants in the last week.
The arrests come just a month after Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano announced that immigration officials would focus enforcement efforts on serious criminals and delay deportation cases for most non-criminal immigrants who don't pose a threat to public safety or national security.
Homeland Security has been widely criticized for using fingerprints collected in local jails to identify and deport people arrested for minor traffic offenses and other misdemeanors. Napolitano has promised a case-by-case review of deportation cases to look for serious criminals to deport.
ICE Director John Morton said every single person arrested had at least one or more convictions and more than 1,600 had one or more felony convictions.
"These are not people who are making a positive contribution to their communities, they are not the kind of people we want walking our streets," Morton said.
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I'll believe corporations are persons when Texas executes one.: LBJ's Ghost
We have heard it time and time again: "We are not against immigration, we are against illegal immigrations."
Yeah, sure ...
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Of course, that statement expresses the feelings of some people, but many others - too many - use it to mask their true anti-immigrant - legal or not - sentiments.
That has become even clearer now that some nativists have taken off their masks and showed their true faces. They are not pretty.
No longer are they saying their problem is only with the undocumented. They have shifted targets to legal immigrants, as the Institute for Research and Education on Human Rights has noted.
"Some national nativist groups appear to be changing course," the institute said, "and are preparing to launch a campaign to restrict documented immigration."
NumbersUSA, the largest anti-immigration group in the country, is one of them. The group has ties to the Tea Party and white nationalists. It was founded with help from John Tanton, a rabid anti-immigrant activist who says his goal is to preserve a "European-American majority."
During the Sept. 22 Republican presidential debate broadcast, NumbersUSA aired an ad urging candidates to reduce legal immigration, if they are elected, "so that more jobs are opened up for unemployed American workers."
"Despite some of the highest unemployment rates since the Great Depression," the group said in a release announcing the ads, "Congress and President Obama continue to issue permanent work permits to more than 1 million new legal immigrants a year to enter the U.S. and take American jobs."
This, of course, is pure demagoguery. Immigrants bring talents and skills that enrich the nation's cultural fabric and economy.
"Immigrants and their children have been responsible for creating millions more jobs in all 50 states," Mayor Bloomberg told a symposium at the Council on Foreign Relations in June. "The reason is simple: Immigrants are dreamers and risk-takers who are driven to succeed because they know that in America, hard work and talent are rewarded like nowhere else."
The Council of Economic Advisors, an agency within the executive office of the President charged with offering Obama objective economic advice, points out that immigrant entrepreneurs started 25% of engineering and technology companies between 1995 and 2005, including some of the economy's biggest names. These companies created thousands of jobs.
"And immigrants are inventors," the council said. "According to a Duke University study, the share of U.S. patent applications filed by immigrants rose from 7.3% to 24.2% from 1998 to 2006. Nearly a quarter of our scientists and almost half of our engineers are immigrants."
But NumbersUSA and other groups like it don't give a damn about the truth. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, they keep spreading the false notion that immigrants, both documented and undocumented, are a drain on the economy and are taking jobs away from "real Americans."
The NumbersUSA ad wasn't the first of its kind. Californians for Population Stabilization, had launched a similar ad during the Sept. 7 GOP presidential debate.
Both spots called for further restricting documented immigration using high unemployment as an excuse.
Extreme anti-immigration groups like NumbersUSA seem to be about to turn up the volume on their campaign of distortions and half-truths.
But as Bloomberg has said: "Every day that we fail to fix our broken immigration laws is a day that we inflict a wound on our economy."
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Illegals Arrested Throughout Southland
(CNS) Posted Wednesday September 28, 2011? 10:50am
More than 200 convicted criminal aliens were arrested in Southern California as part of a 7-day-long operation that netted more than 2,900 such arrests nationwide, immigration officials announced today.
"The results of this targeted enforcement operation demonstrate ICE's continued focus on the arrest and removal of convicted criminal aliens that threaten the public safety of our communities here in southern California," said Timothy Robbins of ICE.
The operation targeted illegal aliens who were convicted of crimes and returned to the United States after being deported.
In Southern California, there were 103 arrests in Los Angeles County, 37 in Orange County, 20 in Riverside County, 19 in San Bernardino County, 26 in Ventura County and nine in Santa Barbara County.
So, let's open up our jails and prisons and let all the criminals on the street?
Don't be obtuse. You know that's not what I suggested.
The option you presented was to jail all illegal immigrants. I repeated my statement that jailing immigrants was the least cost effective and most inhumane option for dealing with illegal immigration. Your suggestion would cost taxpayers an exorbitant amount of money for the privilege of locking people away in a cell.
The alternative I suggested was not jail for illegal immigrants, but taxation. Issue taxpayer IDs, make it legal for American businesses to hire just about anyone. You want a mexican worker, fine - but you're going to pay him at least minimum wage, you're going to report his earnings to the IRS, he's going to get the same lunch breaks as citizens... Remove the immigrant's "illegal" status, and employers won't be able to trust them to keep their illegal employment under wraps.
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Therefore, since the US never lived up to that agreement, can we assume that the Treaty of Guadalupe is null and void. In fact, making these southwestern states, (excluding Texas) part of Los Estados de Unidos de MEXICO?
Yawn.
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like I said, you sit there in Ohio with NO understanding, no roots here, no comprehension of the problems and need to open your thoughts and stop trying to be next JFK, or MLK. You are neither, they understood the problems they dealt with, you incite anger.
It makes you angry for me to point out that your solution is the most expensive and least effective approach possible; the most inefficient method to attempt to solve the problem?
If you started presenting feasible, truly conservative solutions, instead of expecting ME to fund your socialized immigrant prisons, you might get somewhere. As it is, your solution is yet more inefficient government bureaucracy that has no hope of achieving its goals. It would probably be cheaper and more effective to use that money to improve Mexican business infrastructure, reducing their incentive to come here in the first place.
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We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
I don't believe I have said eliminate public assistance all together. I just think that more is wasted than needs to be. ALOT more. I know there are people in need that would use the assistance wisely. There are plenty of people who think they are ENTITLED to "assistance". That is a problem. True assistance is something to be appreciated. Not looked at as a subsidy. What we have are two sides of the coin, one being the ones who truly need it and the other being the rest who happen to qualify. You know that every since assistance has taken the form we know today that there are mothers who would no longer qualify if they marry. What do you think that encourages? That is just an example of the mentality that ruins it for the ones who truly need.
Fair enough. I agree, measures need to be taken to reduce the abuse of public assistance. The money needs to go to the people who need it and use it appropriately.
BUT.
Those measures to prevent abuse must be cost effective! If the average scammer collects $200/month, but those measures cost $1000/month for every scammer they catch, we are better off with the scammer than the program to stop him.
No, I don't like it. But throw the emotional reaction out the door. I've got a problem with some of the vacant properties I'm responsible for maintaining. Thieves like to break in and steal the copper. Now, I could spend a fortune securing these properties, or, I could wait until the copper is stolen and if it is, hire a plumber to replace the old copper with CPVC. Yeah, it would be nice to catch the crooks doing the stealing, but it's cheaper to just roll with it.
Jailing every illegal immigrant is analogous to staking out one of my vacant properties to prevent copper thieves. The best place for law enforcement involvement in copper theft is not sitting in front of my houses, waiting for the thieves to show up, but laying some heat down on the scrap yards.
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We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
.....Those measures to prevent abuse must be cost effective! If the average scammer collects $200/month, but those measures cost $1000/month for every scammer they catch, we are better off with the scammer than the program to stop him. ....
I understand this position. I am afraid however that we are perpetuating the problem by not having some sort of safeguards against the waste. I don't know, maybe if there is evidence that they are maintaining luxury items beyond necessity then they are automatically dropped from the system. Something like that. There has to be a better way. I believe that it is becoming a system that basically pays a large voting block. I do not know what the answer is but I am pretty sure that once 50% of the population is in some way on the gov't doll there is no turning back.
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"A society that puts equality ... ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom."
I understand this position. I am afraid however that we are perpetuating the problem by not having some sort of safeguards against the waste. I don't know, maybe if there is evidence that they are maintaining luxury items beyond necessity then they are automatically dropped from the system. Something like that. There has to be a better way. I believe that it is becoming a system that basically pays a large voting block. I do not know what the answer is but I am pretty sure that once 50% of the population is in some way on the gov't doll there is no turning back.
I received (basically) free primary education; am I on the dole? I think the vast majority of the American population has received a similar education; are we already there?
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We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
Don't be obtuse. You know that's not what I suggested.
The option you presented was to jail all illegal immigrants. I repeated my statement that jailing immigrants was the least cost effective and most inhumane option for dealing with illegal immigration. Your suggestion would cost taxpayers an exorbitant amount of money for the privilege of locking people away in a cell.
The alternative I suggested was not jail for illegal immigrants, but taxation. Issue taxpayer IDs, make it legal for American businesses to hire just about anyone. You want a mexican worker, fine - but you're going to pay him at least minimum wage, you're going to report his earnings to the IRS, he's going to get the same lunch breaks as citizens... Remove the immigrant's "illegal" status, and employers won't be able to trust them to keep their illegal employment under wraps.
ILLEGAL: to be against the law, to break the law . . .a CRIMINAL. Years ago I broke the law and I indeed was arrested and went to JAIL!!! That's what CRIMINALS do, they go to JAIL!!! If these people can not and will not obey FEDERAL LAW, how and WHY would you expect them to obey state, county or city odenences? that's LUDICRIS to reward them.
Talk about inhumane? how about the poor want to be immigrant down in Mexico or anywhere else that wants to come here LEGALLY who is waiting in line? They're the ones you help and reward, not the law breakers.
Yawn.
This one gets me, especially from the Ohio wannabe savior. Very cute but I will tell you, you sit over there at Ohio and don't know that to some people, THIS IS A REAL arguement as to come here. THEY OWN IT is the consenses. We arrogant Americans can't see it, they do. It also shows how long this immigration and anglo/latino troubles have been going on. There's two sides to each story. You can't hear just one. And as I said previously, since the placer fields of California started drying up after the 1849 gold rush, and EVERY recession and depression sense, this problem flares it's nasty head. Do you understand that? Yawn if you will, but this is a LONG STANDING PROBLEM for Latinos and Anglo-Americans, and immigrants legal and illegal. This is neither a pro or anti stand, they are facts that Ohio schools probably seldom teach. Just look up what Pio Pico said about ILLLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
It makes you angry for me to point out that your solution is the most expensive and least effective approach possible; the most inefficient method to attempt to solve the problem?
No, it's more that you call people "nazis" and what not else, yet you have no idea what those people are. If you want to call teaparties nazis, who cares, but to assume people are this or that is, well, stupid and is stereo typing.
If you started presenting feasible, truly conservative solutions, instead of expecting ME to fund your socialized immigrant prisons, you might get somewhere. As it is, your solution is yet more inefficient government bureaucracy that has no hope of achieving its goals. It would probably be cheaper and more effective to use that money to improve Mexican business infrastructure, reducing their incentive to come here in the first place.
Well if you're gonna reward criminals, you must be for anarchy. Because you have to maintain law and order rather this becomes Mexico again or stays the US. (and my family saw three federal governments take over here, we'll be here then too, either way) Mexico/USA, you can't just give free reign to criminals who break the law. If I would have said public service, you would have acused me of enslaving them. No FREE rides, come here legally, no problem, cut through people's property dropping trash, stealing everything that's not chained down, and vandelising what is, after sneaking in AGAINST FEDERAL LAW is a CRIMINAL and that kind of people, the US has enough of already anyways. Law abiding citizens don't break laws they don't think are good, they CHANGE them.
There you go, and my stand, legal yes, . . . break the law, you deserve no rewards and front of the line positions.
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