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Old 02-19-2011, 03:05 PM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
"we don't have very many unions at all and there are some really good jobs out there."

The South has jobs but in many states you can barely live off your job. Look at a breakdown of which states pay the most taxes and which pay the least. The North has subsidized the South for years.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...IX_M2A&cad=rja

According to this spreadsheet I found, you are incorrect. 2008 distribution of federal funds by state. It shows totals and per capita.

And many northern states offer more "services" which is why the taxes are generally higher. I just assume it remain that way.
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:15 PM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
"we don't have very many unions at all and there are some really good jobs out there."

The South has jobs but in many states you can barely live off your job. Look at a breakdown of which states pay the most taxes and which pay the least. The North has subsidized the South for years.
Also, Is it your point that Unions encourage business growth?

I believe that unions discourage business growth.
Surely you don't believe that the unions have no effect.
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:08 PM  
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look at why the unions came to be ,, the hours they worked ,, the number of days they worked ,, NO over time ,, if you got sick FIRED ,on the auto makers line there was a drinking founten 6 feet away but , you couldn't get a drink as the line was moving to fast , and if you didn't get your part on the car ,, FIRED , no break only lunch .. but then the pay low so the company could keep all the money ..
and lets not forget the company called all the shots , you had NOTHING to say about anything . they made rules as they went along or changed them so they came out on the good side . the unions made it the way YOU are working today , 8 hour days ,, over time , sick days ,, vacation time ,, the boss can't pat your hinny and if you complain FIRED .. if they thought you didn't work as hard as they thought you should ,no pay or cut in pay for the day or for the rest of the time you worked there ,,,, and as far as a raise it would not happen ..
NOW lets go back before the union , and work the way it was then ..
Now lets talk safety before unions your safety was not there , it only got in the way so you did't get more done .. there was nothing there for your safety ,,
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Old 02-19-2011, 04:44 PM  
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Originally Posted by tomj View Post
look at why the unions came to be ,, the hours they worked ,, the number of days they worked ,, NO over time ,, if you got sick FIRED ,on the auto makers line there was a drinking founten 6 feet away but , you couldn't get a drink as the line was moving to fast , and if you didn't get your part on the car ,, FIRED , no break only lunch .. but then the pay low so the company could keep all the money ..
and lets not forget the company called all the shots , you had NOTHING to say about anything . they made rules as they went along or changed them so they came out on the good side . the unions made it the way YOU are working today , 8 hour days ,, over time , sick days ,, vacation time ,, the boss can't pat your hinny and if you complain FIRED .. if they thought you didn't work as hard as they thought you should ,no pay or cut in pay for the day or for the rest of the time you worked there ,,,, and as far as a raise it would not happen ..
NOW lets go back before the union , and work the way it was then ..
Now lets talk safety before unions your safety was not there , it only got in the way so you did't get more done .. there was nothing there for your safety ,,
I will say AGAIN.... The unions did accomplish some great much needed things.... But now they have gotten way out of hand. They have gone beyond their practical use.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:31 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I will say AGAIN.... The unions did accomplish some great much needed things.... But now they have gotten way out of hand. They have gone beyond their practical use.
Come to the republican dominated "Right to work" state I live in. I've been forced to work 8 hours a day with no lunch or breaks, every day, day in and day out for one employer. No breaks are pretty common. In my profession, you make about 12 bucks an hour, and up to 17 if you're lucky. Government work in Idaho.....We just did work on the Hayden Lake National gaurd Armory in Idaho, a prevailing wage job...... $17 an hour. Did the armory in Spokane Washington....... prevailing wage......$42. Difference? Union in the state of Washington. Idaho? Bend over! I know nothing is perfect, but in my profession, I'll take the union over private contractors, thank you! You're correct that private industry provides a job, but you take what they laddle up, for the wage they offer, which is a shaft job. You hate unions, and I respect that, but I'm pro union all the way. I love someone in my corner, fighting for me, rather than some businessman looking to boost his bottom line at my expense. I'd also like to retire one day also, you know? Union gives me a shot at it. Private industry offers nothing.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:21 PM  
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What we are talking about here is Unions in Government, not public Union organizations. I think American workers are the best in the world, but there is no way we can compete with those in China.

Try to find anything not made in China anymore. Why do you think manufacturers are moving their businesses over seas. The American worker has priced themselves out of the market. It's time to suck it up gentlemen! Anybody tired of paying a plumber $115 for a 15 minute job? All of the trades are over priced. An employer will not fire you if there isn't another equally skilled worker standing in line for your job, and if your job is unskilled or easily learned then you have to live with what cards your dealt.

Having a Union mandate to your employer that the whole shop will walk if demands aren't met is a Union with too much power. It is why small manufacturing business has moved out of the country. The higher the minimum wage gets, the more unskilled jobs move out of the country. Think about it, why are things so expensive? Why do prices keep going up on everything? Why do people shop at Dollar Tree, Grocery Outlet and Wally World?

Folks working in the private sector, Union or not; are making concessions to save and keep jobs. Public employees are asking for raises and getting them. They are asking to contribute less for their benefits package than those who work in the private sector and Government increases your taxes to pay of those salary increases and benefits packages.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:56 PM  
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Oh I don't know..... How about looking at CEO pay, and the amount of money American Corporations rake in. They aren't taking a hit, no sir! And to even suggest that minimum wage is too high? I'm not sure what you make an hour, but try raising a family these days on even $12 an hour. Stuff is getting more expensive because everyone at the tpo wants more and more and more. In almost any circumstance, those at the top don't take a hit whatsoever. Always those at the bottom. Suck it up? Get an education? Even many college grads are working at hamburger joints for next to nothing. What about the Governor of Wisconsin sucking it up a bit. I'd just love to see these guys with everything, give up a little bit. Walk away from their health insurance. Give up on the retirement and pay into a 401 K if you can even find one of those anymore.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:03 PM  
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I really do hope that these fine folks keep on the heat and don't relent. If I were there, I'd be right there with them. Govornment or no, people deserve a decent wage and the chance to retire. We're not a bunch of Egyption slaves!
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:52 AM  
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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
Oh I don't know..... How about looking at CEO pay, and the amount of money American Corporations rake in.
I'm not going to play the class envy game. Those (many ) CEO's worked to get where they are. The rich (many of them) earned their money the hard way.

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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
And to even suggest that minimum wage is too high? I'm not sure what you make an hour, but try raising a family these days on even $12 an hour.
Minimum wage jobs are intended to be entry level training positions. Usually, they are filled by unskilled youth entering the job market. They aren't intended for folks to raise a family on. If that is their situation that is a shame, but not my problem.

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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
Stuff is getting more expensive because everyone at the top wants more and more and more. In almost any circumstance, those at the top don't take a hit whatsoever.
Once again, class envy. Are you saying that people who make more money than say a grocery clerk, $45 - $50K; didn't earn their money, or that for some reason they don't deserve to keep what they earn? I would venture a guess that they worked just as hard to earn their millions as I did to make the $48K I made this year.

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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
Suck it up? Get an education? Even many college grads are working at hamburger joints for next to nothing.
Get two jobs, volunteer for overtime, do some home study and get a raise where you work now, go to night school, take a self improvement course online, learn a new trade working for free after hours, if you have a trade and are a journeyman, open your own business out of your home, better yet, get a job doing something your are interested in rather than going into a job you hate every day.

A college grad who majored in History, Physical Education, or English Literature should be flipping hamburgers. I never had the chance to go to college until after the military. I did it at night, after a 10 hour work day.

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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
What about the Governor of Wisconsin sucking it up a bit. I'd just love to see these guys with everything, give up a little bit. Walk away from their health insurance. Give up on the retirement and pay into a 401 K if you can even find one of those anymore.
I agree here completely. It sets an example for the rest of the legislature. Like I said before, There used to be "Dollar a Year" men. I guess that portion of courage and honor has left those we elect to office.
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Old 02-20-2011, 11:39 AM  
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Neither am I! I just think it's partially wrong when you see these stats with respect to the average worker.......... Pay for Performance
According to Business Week, the average CEO of a major corporation made 42 times the average hourly worker's pay in 1980. By 1990 that had almost doubled to 85 times. In 2000, the average CEO salary reached an unbelievable 531 times that of the average hourly worker.

"Pay for performance", tying executive compensation to the financial success of their company, has become very popular in the past decade. In the face of the largest bull market ever, that isn't surprising. It also isn't realistic. What CEO honestly believes that all or most of the appreciation in value of their company is due to their own talent?

Here's another link CEO Pay Up 298%, Average Worker's? 4.3% (1995-2005) - The Consumerist This guy felt the same way as you about minimum wage jobs, and people working multiple jobs and longer hours..........
Sorry, but when unemployment is such that it is, even professionals like those in your field, are being forced to take much less paying jobs, and older Americans are finding that their retirement will need to be put off further than they thought. The fact is, that some people can afford to be smug about it all, until it hits you! Every person I know, is working harder for less money, than they did just a few years ago. When will people begin to rise up like those in Wisconsin? I'm not talking about grocery clerks, I'm talking about insurance companies raising their rates, energy companies raising their rates, food producers raising their rates and not just a little, but by leaps and bounds. Look at the oil industry. Here a while back, when fuel was 4 bucks a gallon, the oil companies.....i.e. the CEOs made record profits! This was what I was talking about. Companies and CEOs profiting even more from increased cost of their goods.
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