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Old 06-15-2011, 11:40 AM  
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Mill Creek, Washington
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Still there, Old-Goat?
rivalarrival: Yes I am still here and going nowhere. Well that was original. I have never heard of disbelief in God as being laid off on lightning bolts. That is good. Here is reason to believe:

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes ? his eternal power and divine nature ? have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen
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Old 06-15-2011, 05:07 PM  
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Kent, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Old-Goat View Post
rivalarrival: Yes I am still here and going nowhere. Well that was original. I have never heard of disbelief in God as being laid off on lightning bolts. That is good. Here is reason to believe:



1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes ? his eternal power and divine nature ? have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen
I'll note that you didn't answer the question. How do YOU explain the complexity of life?

Worship and serve the creator, not the creation. Does that passage mean that humans aren't permitted to learn from the world around them? Does that mean that mankind is required to forgo any study but biblical? That the only professions one can take on are those described within the bible?

Because *any* study of the world around us will eventually lead to evolutionary concepts.

For that matter, the fundamental idea of evolution was known in biblical times. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." - Matthew 7:18. Evolutionary theory espouses that very idea with the phrase "survival of the fittest".

So why the (implied) denial of evolution as the means in which life became complex?
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:34 PM  
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Rival:

Evolution does explain the continued complexity of a thing but it can't explain the presence of that thing.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:48 PM  
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Bristol, Tennessee
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Originally Posted by Old-Goat View Post
Rival:

Evolution does explain the continued complexity of a thing but it can't explain the presence of that thing.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
evolution does explain that, the real area open for debate is the beginning of existence of anything, evolution easiloy explains the growth from simple organisms to complex ones, but the debate area of what created something from nothing is the only one with merit, however the argument against evolution theory as a source for all life can be turned right back against the idea of god.

who created god? if god could just be or "always had been" then why can't matter? as in stating that science has not fully explained the creation of the universe does not mean by default it magically appeared. your "explaination" is not an explanation at all so comparing it to science is just absurd.

yes everything can be claimed to be explained by "magic" of a god, but it is NOT a real explaination, it's an easy out that doesn't answer questions. Just as in the past we did not understand locusts,tornados, floods, earthquakes, solar eclipses, lunar eclipses so we explained them by religion, eventually we will know more about the universe. So just as they used that as "evidence" back then you are using it now....
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:40 PM  
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Kent, Ohio
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Originally Posted by Old-Goat View Post
Rival:

Evolution does explain the continued complexity of a thing but it can't explain the presence of that thing.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Evolution explains not just the continued complexity, but the increasing complexity. That means that *IF* god created life, the life he created was less complex than life as it exists now. Science shows us how much less complex when it comes to understand how far back we can trace evolutionary processes. As humanity has conclusively discovered and proven, either god created life as single-celled organisms, or god created a world with evidence to suggest it was older than it was. Such as buried bones for dinosaurs that never actually walked the earth.

Either theistic theory is technically valid. With the former, we still have much to learn from the world he created. With the latter, the question needs to be raised as to why god created such evidence in a young earth. With either, the path is clear: continue studying the creation he put before us.

Which is the same path as the non-theistic theory. The difference is that the non-theistic path makes no assumptions as to the nature of god. If god does actually exist, these people will arguably have the best understanding of his nature, through knowledge derived from the study of his works.

The lesson of the lightning rod is "Theistic theories can - and do - provide inaccurate depictions of the nature of god". The scientific theory of lightning is FAR more accurate than the understanding derived from the ~46 biblical references to lightning being a token of the wrath of god.

If god is directly responsible for lightning, the scientific theory gives us far more insight as to why God would use lightning than the previous, theistic theory that God heaved lightning bolts from the clouds to smite evil. The scientific theory tells us that God doesn't use lightning to exact vengeance on certain people and structures. If he did, we wouldn't be able to reliably protect people and structures from the effects of lightning.

Assuming god exists, the scientific theory of lightning provides MUCH greater insight into the nature of God than the theistic theory did. Similarly, evolutionary theory offers much greater insight into the nature of god than the Adam and Eve theory.
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