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Old 04-05-2011, 07:25 PM  
mohel
 
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Is the Bible True?

David Lose: Is the Bible True?

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Wait! Don't answer that question too quickly. If you do, you'll likely judge the Bible's veracity by categories established 1,500 years after it was written. Perhaps I should explain.

Disillusioned by the religious fervor that fed the Thirty Years War (1618-1648), the early architects of what would later be called the Enlightenment demanded that all claims about the natural world be verified by the exercise of human reason rather than dogmatic pronouncement. In doing so, they distinguished between values (things one may believe but can't prove) and facts (things one can, and therefore should, prove). For these early modernists, both values and facts represented truth claims, but each of a different order. Over time, however, rationally verified facts -- and the scientific method to which they led -- became so productive and influential that it wasn't all that long until notions of truth became associated almost exclusively with facts.

This preference for facts over values created a crisis for many religious traditions during the 19th and early 20th centuries as biblical scholars, embracing the rational-critical methods of scientific, historical and archeological study, realized that many of the descriptions and claims of the Bible did not withstand critical scrutiny. The sun, as it turned out, did not revolve around the earth, and the world was not created in seven days. Moreover, it became apparent that not only did the Bible provide unreliable historical and scientific information but the biblical writers also often contradicted each other. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, for instance, Jesus drives the money changers from the Temple in Jerusalem shortly before his crucifixion and dies on Passover. In contrast, according to John, Jesus clears the Temple at the beginning of his ministry and is crucified on the day before Passover.

The dubious nature of biblical "history" and "science" and the multiple discrepancies among the four evangelists led to a great schism in Christianity, each side assuming that truth is equated unequivocally with facts. On the liberal side of the divide, scholars concluded that because the Bible was not factually accurate it was in a profound sense not true. Witness, for instance, Bart Ehrman's recent post on who wrote the Bible (and, for that matter, his entire literary career). Conservatives, on the other hand, asserting that the Bible was obviously true, concluded that it therefore must be factually accurate. Hence, they have written tomes that rival the Bible itself in length that engage in intellectual gymnastics in order to iron out all the "so-called" discrepancies in Scripture.

Both sides, however, miss the literary nature and intent of the Bible as stated within its own pages. Take for example Luke, who in his introduction acknowledges that he is not an eye-witness to the events he recounts but depends on multiple other stories about Jesus. He writes what he calls "an orderly account" so that his audience may believe and trust the teaching they have received (Luke 1:1-4). Or consider John, who near the end of his gospel comes clean about carefully arranging stories of Jesus so as to persuade his readers that Jesus is the messiah (John 20:30-31). The gospels -- and, indeed, all of Scripture -- do not seek to prove but to persuade. And so John, convinced that Jesus is "the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world" (1:29), portrays Jesus as clearing the Temple of money changers at the very outset of his ministry because he, himself, is God's sacrifice. Similarly, Jesus dies on the Day of Preparation at the exact moment the Passover lambs are slaughtered. John's aim is thoroughly theological, not historical.

For this reason, the Bible is filled with testimony, witness, confession and even propaganda. Does it contain some reliable historical information? Of that there is little doubt. Yet, whenever we stumble upon "verifiable facts" -- a notion largely foreign to ancient writers -- we should keep in mind that the biblical authors deployed them not to make a logical argument but rather to persuade their audiences of a larger "truth" that cannot be proved in a laboratory but is finally accepted or not accepted based on its ability to offer a compelling story about the meaning and purpose of the world, God, humanity and everything in between. To attempt to determine whether the Bible is "true" based only on its factual accuracy is therefore to make a profound category mistake, judging its contents by standards its authors were neither cognizant of nor interested in.

By way of illustration, recall for a moment the scene from Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction when the two main characters, Jules and Vincent, argue over how to explain what happened when a drug dealer unloaded his handgun at them at close range but missed them entirely. Vincent (played by John Travolta) believes it's a freak occurrence. Jules (played by Samuel L. Jackson) considers it a miracle. Jules' defense of his judgment bears closely on our discussion. In response to Vincent's assertion that what happened didn't qualify as physically "impossible" and therefore could not be considered miraculous, Jules says, "You're judging this the wrong way. It's not about what. It could be God stopped the bullets, he changed Coke into Pepsi, he found my ... car keys. You don't judge **** like this based on merit. Whether or not what we experienced was an according-to-Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt God's touch. God got involved."

Jules' sense of the criteria necessary to assess truth is far closer to that of the biblical writers than that of not only Vincent but also both contemporary liberals and conservatives alike, as he asserts that the ultimate criteria of truth isn't factual accuracy but a compelling, even transformative witness. Clearly there are many ways to answer the question of whether the Bible is true. If you are interested primarily in its factual accuracy, then your options are clear and you might as well pick a side. If, however, you're interested in a way out of the stalemate and false dichotomy of the present conservative-liberal debate, then you might join Jules in putting the matter differently. When you read the Bible, that is, do you feel God's touch? Does God get involved?

OK, now you can answer the question.
David Lose, author of Making Sense of Scripture, holds the Marbury Anderson Chair in Biblical Preaching at Luther Seminary.
Is the Bible True?-54b.jpg 

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Old 06-10-2011, 10:13 PM  
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[Quote]: For this reason, the Bible is filled with testimony, witness, confession and even propaganda. Does it contain some reliable historical information? Of that there is little doubt. Yet, whenever we stumble upon "verifiable facts" -- a notion largely foreign to ancient writers -- we should keep in mind that the biblical authors deployed them not to make a logical argument but rather to persuade their audiences of a larger "truth" that cannot be proved in a laboratory but is finally accepted or not accepted based on its ability to offer a compelling story about the meaning and purpose of the world, God, humanity and everything in between. To attempt to determine whether the Bible is "true" based only on its factual accuracy is therefore to make a profound category mistake, judging its contents by standards its authors were neither cognizant of nor interested in. [Quote]

What a big line of Bull. The Bible is God's word written by men as they were led by the Holy Spirit. It is either True or it is not True. Just remember God can not lie.

If you can not believe it that is your own problem. But you can not with any truthfulness say it is not truth or that the writers were not interested in truth.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:27 PM  
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Just remember God can not lie.
An omnipotent God could. (no limits)

I don't in any way fault God for any biblical discrepancies, just the 2000 years of editing to suit their own agendas.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:24 PM  
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So you do believe in God?
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Old 06-11-2011, 01:38 PM  
mohel
 
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
So you do believe in God?
try reading the threads
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:04 PM  
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I take it that means "Yes", but not in the traditional (i.e. biblical) manner?
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:16 PM  
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Thanks RR. Sometime us lowly Marines need old-man-translations
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:26 PM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
An omnipotent God could. (no limits)

I don't in any way fault God for any biblical discrepancies, just the 2000 years of editing to suit their own agendas.
Who's agenda's? and what would those agenda's be? What was all that evil editing you suggest? And what was gained by it. You suggest that a evil conspiracy has been carried out over a 2000 year period but you forget that nothing is hidden from God. He watches out and over His word. There can be no conspiracy that He does not know about. When did He quite caring about the credibility of His word? His Word says that "His Word is truth." Are you calling God a liar?
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Old 06-11-2011, 02:32 PM  
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Originally Posted by Old-Goat View Post
Who's agenda's? and what would those agenda's be?
the men behind the church and often in the terms of king james bible the king's interest
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What was all that evil editing you suggest? And what was gained by it.
control over the people
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You suggest that a evil conspiracy has been carried out over a 2000 year period but you forget that nothing is hidden from God.
"GOD" is the conspiracy, it's manmade creation designed for men to control other men by coercing or forcing them to believe in their religion
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He watches out and over His word.
so your captor does not have to do that work if you do so willingly by being afraid of "god"
Quote:
There can be no conspiracy that He does not know about. When did He quite caring about the credibility of His word? His Word says that "His Word is truth." Are you calling God a liar?
so do you follow all parts of the bible? no seriously I would really like a response to this? do you try to follow the teachings in the bible to the best of your ability? or do you dismiss the parts you don't like?

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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
try reading the threads
I especially wonder about your custom user name..... please tell me that's some kind of a joke....
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Old 06-11-2011, 03:17 PM  
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I believe in God, but don't believe in organized "church" because I think it's been construed that if you go to church, then you are a Christian. My dad was a pastor, so I sort of grew up in the church, so I saw the inner back-stabbing and drama, and now, as an adult, really want to have nothing to do with it.

So I agree with you on disagreeing with the established church. However, I do believe in God. So where's my "fear" or "coercing" come in?
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