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Old 07-07-2011, 08:20 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorph View Post
Christians are pretty much like everybody else. They just spend a couple of hours once a week and give some money to keep the preacher's family and travel expenses paid up and go on about their business.

Christians:

Turn the other cheek
Walk the extra mile
Do unto others as they would like to be done unto
Love their neighbors
Love their enemies
Pray for those who curse and despise them
If sued in court for coat voluntarily give cloak
Take no thought for tomorrow(401K anyone)
Sell what they have and give it to the poor
According to Matthew 5:48 they are perfect

Add to that giving the 10% of everything they can get their hands on and VOILA!

I'm 77 years old and I've never met one
Oh, you've met many Christians in your 77 years......just not those who live up to YOUR expectations.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:56 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldruggedcrosser View Post
Hillman:



Yes, after re-reading in the red I can see what you are getting at.
Being called a Calvinist is not offensive to me. I have a Reformed Calvinist bent, but not a hyper Calvinist. I receintly read a article that would explain what I was trying to say only better. If I can find it again I think you would find it interesting. I will continue to look.

Blessings be!

EDIT: I found the statement:




Interesting thought isn't it?

I don't mean to be pickin nits but may I take another run at your statement. I believe that it is important to have a full understanding on this matter. Maybe we will reach agreement and maybe not. But I would like to discuss it again.
No problem "take a go". Actually I think we're saying the same thing. I'm a proponent of Grudem on most points and virtually every point of Sproul. I also enjoy Stanley....more to read than listen though. So we appreciate similar doctrinal beliefs.

I think Charles (Your reference) and myself are saying the same thing. I never mentioned "work" in relation to salvation but merely used faith as a cooperative function of the order of salvation as preceding glorification.

The (conservative) ordo salutis as follows is the basis of my point.
Predestination
Election
Calling
Regeneration
Faith
Repentance
Justification
Sanctification
Perseverance
Glorification

In this order faith precedes glorification not withstanding the resultant (unrequired) works.

Again, I wrote, "Our sins will continue up until glorification (death that attains perfection) where Christ's propitiation (His complete and sufficient payment for our sins.) and our faith (A component of ordo salutis that follows glorification and vital factor in salvation.) enables our sins to be "forgotten" (in a legal sense)."

Anything more and I just repeat myself, but thanks for your patience.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:46 PM  
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Mill Creek, Washington
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Some Words Make A Difference

Hillman, your point:
Quote:
My point, obviously ill stated, was that glorification can only be accomplished as a product of the Work of Christ (ministry & cross) which is validated and assured by one's continued faith. In that context my hope is that those desiring to hear that faith alone (sola fida) is sufficient but only because of the sacrificial work of the Christ.
I think that your statement should have had a period at the end of (ministry & cross). This extension of that sentence is where I contend to be in error. This part: "which is validated and assured by one's continued faith." If that were so, we would not have confidence and a full assurance of final glorification. Because if what Christ had done "(ministry & cross)" needs to be validated and thus giving assurance by our continued faith, our salvation and confidence would not rely (sola fida) on the finished work of Christ. To me this would indicate conditional salvation.

Those who believe in conditional salvation must now consider whether they, in fact, have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Could it be that some are trusting in their own performance in the Christian life to keep their salvation rather than trusting in the finished work of the Jesus on the cross? The conditional view of salvation not only denies God's word, but it also produces a legalistic, fear-inspiring, and experience-oriented Christian walk.

If we are sealed until the day of redemption, does that mean that some will lose their salvation before reaching that day? Scripture says no. When God says in His word that the believer is sealed until the day of redemption, that is exactly what He means. Persons reborn, regenerated, made new by the Holy Spirit will remain saved and make it to the day of redemption because God says so. That is what the doctrine of election holds.


Blessed Assurance Hymn

Bless?d assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain

This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior, all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior, all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels descending bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Refrain

Perfect submission, all is at rest
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.


Oh Hallaluya
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:20 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Oh, you've met many Christians in your 77 years......just not those who live up to YOUR expectations.
My expectations?? I lived in the church till I was over sixty years old...averaged being there three times a week. I was a member of the Brotherhood, a Sunday school teacher, a member of the planning and building committees, coached RA Boys, served on the visitation committee, helped with vacation bible school and took youngsters on religious retreats, tithed my gross and gave extra to Lottie Moon and other southern Baptist endeavors. I watched while my own children were brainwashed with that primitive horse manure.

I will speak up against all ancient god worship for the rest of my life. Right now if the south sea islands are included there are more than 4,000 ancient gods being worshiped. The Christian faith has more than 44,000 denominations, conventions, sects, cults, off shoots, etc. If it's so important why is it so confusing?

Besides that folks who believe in virgin birth, walking on water, healing leprosy by touching, turning water into fine wine, raising from the dead, feeding 5000 hungry pilgrims plus women and children who also ate with two fish and five loaves then gathering 12 baskets of leftovers, hanging a man on a tree, bleeding him like a hog then seeing him fit as a fiddle two days later are either brainwashed or need to take a new reading on reality.

If there is a loving, caring, supreme invisible man in the sky and he chose to leave the only keys to the kingdom with ignorant people back during the stone age who believed the earth was flat and the universe revolved around it and never make his presence known again...he "ain't much punkin."
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:07 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldruggedcrosser View Post
Hillman, your point:


I think that your statement should have had a period at the end of (ministry & cross). This extension of that sentence is where I contend to be in error. This part: "which is validated and assured by one's continued faith." If that were so, we would not have confidence and a full assurance of final glorification. Because if what Christ had done "(ministry & cross)" needs to be validated and thus giving assurance by our continued faith, our salvation and confidence would not rely (sola fida) on the finished work of Christ. To me this would indicate conditional salvation.

Those who believe in conditional salvation must now consider whether they, in fact, have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Could it be that some are trusting in their own performance in the Christian life to keep their salvation rather than trusting in the finished work of the Jesus on the cross? The conditional view of salvation not only denies God's word, but it also produces a legalistic, fear-inspiring, and experience-oriented Christian walk.

If we are sealed until the day of redemption, does that mean that some will lose their salvation before reaching that day? Scripture says no. When God says in His word that the believer is sealed until the day of redemption, that is exactly what He means. Persons reborn, regenerated, made new by the Holy Spirit will remain saved and make it to the day of redemption because God says so. That is what the doctrine of election holds.


Blessed Assurance Hymn

Bless?d assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.

Refrain

This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior, all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior, all the day long.

Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels descending bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.

Refrain

Perfect submission, all is at rest
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.


Oh Hallaluya
I still think we're saying the same thing.
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:44 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorph View Post
My expectations?? I lived in the church till I was over sixty years old...averaged being there three times a week. I was a member of the Brotherhood, a Sunday school teacher, a member of the planning and building committees, coached RA Boys, served on the visitation committee, helped with vacation bible school and took youngsters on religious retreats, tithed my gross and gave extra to Lottie Moon and other southern Baptist endeavors. I watched while my own children were brainwashed with that primitive horse manure.

I will speak up against all ancient god worship for the rest of my life. Right now if the south sea islands are included there are more than 4,000 ancient gods being worshiped. The Christian faith has more than 44,000 denominations, conventions, sects, cults, off shoots, etc. If it's so important why is it so confusing?

Besides that folks who believe in virgin birth, walking on water, healing leprosy by touching, turning water into fine wine, raising from the dead, feeding 5000 hungry pilgrims plus women and children who also ate with two fish and five loaves then gathering 12 baskets of leftovers, hanging a man on a tree, bleeding him like a hog then seeing him fit as a fiddle two days later are either brainwashed or need to take a new reading on reality.

If there is a loving, caring, supreme invisible man in the sky and he chose to leave the only keys to the kingdom with ignorant people back during the stone age who believed the earth was flat and the universe revolved around it and never make his presence known again...he "ain't much punkin."
Very well stated Dorf.....you don't believe, you won't believe, you have never believed. I fully understand and appreciate your comments. You have made the same points repeatedly on this board. What gives me pause is that it took you 60 years of being entrenched in a personal and public lie before you admitted that you were a fraudulent believer.

I wonder....did you give as much effort to your past believing life as you do your current non-believing life? Also, how many of those in the Brotherhood, the Sunday school attendees, members of the planning and building committees, those RA Boys, persons from the visitation committee, the innocent attendees of vacation bible school and the youngsters on those religious retreats did you influence to follow you down this path you are currently on? I use the word "currently" because, by your own admission, you may change your mind again. Hopefully, it doesn't take 60 more years.

You need not respond to the questions...they are not for you answer.
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:58 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Very well stated Dorf.....you don't believe, you won't believe, you have never believed. I fully understand and appreciate your comments. You have made the same points repeatedly on this board. What gives me pause is that it took you 60 years of being entrenched in a personal and public lie before you admitted that you were a fraudulent believer.

I wonder....did you give as much effort to your past believing life as you do your current non-believing life? Also, how many of those in the Brotherhood, the Sunday school attendees, members of the planning and building committees, those RA Boys, persons from the visitation committee, the innocent attendees of vacation bible school and the youngsters on those religious retreats did you influence to follow you down this path you are currently on? I use the word "currently" because, by your own admission, you may change your mind again. Hopefully, it doesn't take 60 more years.

You need not respond to the questions...they are not for you answer.
You do not pay very close attention. I said I doubted. It was only after 60 years of my life was gone that I made up my mind.

Who actually believes a man walked on water?
Who actually believes healing by touching?
Who actually believes turning water into fine wine?
Who actually believes feeding 6000-8000 hungry people with two fish and five loaves then gathering leftovers?
Who actually believes a man was bled like a hog then showed up two days later fit as a fiddle?

Answer...those who were brainwashed as children.

Again...why would a loving, caring god leave the only keys to the kingdom in the care of primitive, ignorant people who believed the earth was flat and the universe revolved around it?

The most arrogant, egotistical statement ever made:

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

The idea that a few ancient sheep herders came up with a one way street for the whole world is so totally ridiculous that only those who were brainwashed as youths or converted while they were depressed can possibly accept it for the truth. It's a fairy tale.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:32 AM  
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Wow, the compelling fascination continues strong!
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:29 PM  
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Mill Creek, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 58 | Kudos: +12
Dorf:

Was there some event at age 60 that brought about your change of mind? Did God let you down in some way at that time? I'm curious what changed you into such a agnostic position after 60 years of participation. Do you have a wife, and is she a believer or has she if you do have one, ever been a believer?
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:38 PM  
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Mill Creek, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 58 | Kudos: +12
Hillman: Then I take it that you do not go along with the doctrine of Election? If you see that one's faith validates or as you put it: The work of the Cross "which is validated and assured by one's continued faith." What happens if one's faith doesn't continue? What I mean by that is what if a person due to some event in his life becomes discouraged and his faith wanes and dies. Does that make the work of the cross and his former faith useless? It no longer validates?

Thanks Larry
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