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Old 07-30-2011, 04:11 PM  
mohel
 
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Quote:
and neither should be blamed if/when a system of, and by, man fails.
Once we looked at the Boy Scouts to find perverts but in recent years it's the church.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:09 AM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
Once we looked at the Boy Scouts to find perverts but in recent years it's the church.
I agree with your statement in kind, but not its intent. Your intent is to slight the Church but when honesty prevails the Church carries no burden for the actions of man except in the minds of those who share not in it's promise.

Truth be told.....the Church was perverted by men long before the Boy Scouts ever existed. The Church nor the Boy Scouts deserve the blame set upon them by those who are not actually a part of or represent what either institution represents or its intentions.

You blaming the Church and or the Boy Scouts for the perversions of man is tantamount to me blaming your keyboard for typing ludicrous statements.

Bad ignorant perverted keyboard, bad!
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:16 AM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
not much sillier then most other religions, I find it amusing when christians/other abrahamic religions (which to an outsider pretty much believe the same thing with minor variations) see the absurdities of people outside their beliefs and say the nutjub isn't really religious while they do their own vile thing.
I....think I don't understand, but I know I don't care.



Bad ignorant perverted keyboard! Bad!
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:05 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
I agree with your statement in kind, but not its intent. Your intent is to slight the Church but when honesty prevails the Church carries no burden for the actions of man except in the minds of those who share not in it's promise.

Truth be told.....the Church was perverted by men long before the Boy Scouts ever existed. The Church nor the Boy Scouts deserve the blame set upon them by those who are not actually a part of or represent what either institution represents or its intentions.

You blaming the Church and or the Boy Scouts for the perversions of man is tantamount to me blaming your keyboard for typing ludicrous statements.

Bad ignorant perverted keyboard, bad!
In other words, any criticism anyone might have about the average theist's worldview is invalid, as the negative point is not caused by his worldview, but by factors lying outside his worldview, usually by people failing to adopt his worldview. Any criticism is dismissed.

In contrast, any criticism made against a scientist's worldview can't be arbitrarily dismissed. It must be incorporated into that worldview for that position to remain valid.



The fact is that *any* organization that creates positions of trust between adults and children will be damaged when that trust is broken. Whether that "organization" is a "church" with a billion members, or a family of one parent and one child is irrelevant.

Any organization that publicly condemns such a violation of trust while privately tolerating it - or trying to conceal it - is less ethical than an organization that openly practices the same actions. (NAMBLA comes to mind)

Any organization that refuses ownership of such a violation of trust is less ethical than one that openly practices the same act. Any organization that doesn't even ask itself if it bears any responsibility for the violation of trust is less ethical than one that openly practices the same act.

In response to being accused of creating an environment conducive to pedophilia, I know that at all levels of the organization, the Boy Scouts have instituted several policies aimed at protecting children from pedophiles. I'm not sure at what level these policies were enacted, but I'm aware of a policy that prohibits youths and adults from using the same changing areas. There is a policy that no adult may sleep in the same tent, cabin, vehicle, or room as a youth to which he is not related. The YMCA and every other public gym and swimming pool I've encountered has had less restrictive policies enforcing separation of youths and adults.

I know the Catholic church has taken a lot of heat for trying to cover up pedophilia. I don't know what Catholics have done to mitigate the possibility of child abuse.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:31 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
In other words, any criticism anyone might have about the average theist's worldview is invalid, as the negative point is not caused by his worldview, but by factors lying outside his worldview, usually by people failing to adopt his worldview. Any criticism is dismissed.

More likely to be merely ignored....but mostly they'll just say, "Whut?"......then ignored.



In response to being accused of creating an environment conducive to pedophilia, I know that at all levels of the organization, the Boy Scouts have instituted several policies aimed at protecting children from pedophiles. I'm not sure at what level these policies were enacted, but I'm aware of a policy that prohibits youths and adults from using the same changing areas. There is a policy that no adult may sleep in the same tent, cabin, vehicle, or room as a youth to which he is not related. The YMCA and every other public gym and swimming pool I've encountered has had less restrictive policies enforcing separation of youths and adults.

I know the Catholic church has taken a lot of heat for trying to cover up pedophilia. I don't know what Catholics have done to mitigate the possibility of child abuse.
When you are "sure" and when you "know" you might be qualified to converse on such subjects but until then, I stand by my statement...the Church nor the Boy Scouts are the problem....the sinful men in perilous control are.

Passing the blame from the actions of a fallen man to an organization is tantamount blaming your keyboard for typing out irrelevant and inconclusive statements.

It just don't make sense. Bad keyboard! Bad!
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:45 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
"Doubt", geographic or otherwise, continues to taint the truth.
The were a lot of non doubters expecting that Rapture too a few months back.Doubt is a tool more should look into.

Never been to Texas but I read newspapers every day. The common view is Austin is an island.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:47 PM  
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Just to switch gears, while I was working patrol, years before the Catholic church admitted these molestations, I remember a lone 20's something male, holding a picket sign across the street from the the large Catholic church. The sign said, "The Catholics are covering up pedofiles." When I asked why he was holding such an inflammatory sign, he told me he himself was personally molested by one of the priests there, but everyone, including the courts, dismissed this as BS. About 6 months later, the same very popular priest from that church was reassigned out of the area, and it was advertised as a way for this priest to expand his horizons. IMHO, this was the ultimate sweeping it under the carpet, which is now common knowledge as a way to rid the church of these folks.
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Old 07-31-2011, 01:26 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
More likely to be merely ignored....but mostly they'll just say, "Whut?"......then ignored.
Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Quote:

When you are "sure" and when you "know" you might be qualified to converse on such subjects but until then, I stand by my statement...the Church nor the Boy Scouts are the problem....the sinful men in perilous control are.

Passing the blame from the actions of a fallen man to an organization is tantamount blaming your keyboard for typing out irrelevant and inconclusive statements.


It just don't make sense. Bad keyboard! Bad!

You missed my point. I'm not blaming either the scouts or a religious organization for pedophilia. I'm saying that the scouts recognized they could do something to protect children from pedophiles, and they enacted such measures. I'm also aware that both the catholic church and the topical sect have gone to significant lengths to hide pedophiles from prosecution.

Just to clarify: I *know* the policies have been enacted. I've been subject to such policies. They've been communicated to me. I'm *not sure* what level of the organization created these policies. I believe all that I mentioned were enacted at the national level, but they could be at council, district, facility, or unit level.
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:48 PM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
The were a lot of non doubters expecting that Rapture too a few months back.Doubt is a tool more should look into.

Never been to Texas but I read newspapers every day. The common view is Austin is an island.
That is a correct statement. It is a conundrum.

My county, Kerr, although geographically close, is, in virtually every way, different.

People are weird...............people in general that is.

EDIT: You distracted my attention when you mentioned Austin, which by the way only two good things come out of, music and Rick Perry, but I am intrigued by your comment, "a lot of non doubters (were) expecting that Rapture too a few months back.Doubt is a tool more should look into".

Are you saying that there were "non doubters" as in believers, looking forward to the rapture? If in fact "non doubters" is a reference to believers then we agree. Every true believer looks forward to the rapture. This fact, whether understood correctly or not, is revealed in "The Lord's Prayer".
Our Father, which art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,

the power, and the glory,

for ever and ever.

Amen.

The key words of understanding are "Thy Kingdom come Thy Will be done on earth as it is heaven", which is a word picture of the rapture. Believers look forward to rapture and can sometimes be swayed by......the theater of the flesh. Hebrews 11:1 spells out the unseen hope that is in us and that hope is so compelling sometimes that our doubt can be trumped by our flesh and lead us astray. Doubt is not necessarily a bad thing in the life of a believer IF it leads to sanctification rather than rejection.

...good point though!
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:53 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post

You missed my point. I'm not blaming either the scouts or a religious organization for pedophilia. I'm saying that the scouts recognized they could do something to protect children from pedophiles, and they enacted such measures. I'm also aware that both the catholic church and the topical sect have gone to significant lengths to hide pedophiles from prosecution.

Just to clarify: I *know* the policies have been enacted. I've been subject to such policies. They've been communicated to me. I'm *not sure* what level of the organization created these policies. I believe all that I mentioned were enacted at the national level, but they could be at council, district, facility, or unit level.
No, I understood your point.......and by my reading of your posts you are still putting emphasis, good or bad, on the organizations (the Church, Boy Scouts, "topical sect"..whatever that is) which is always made up of and by fallen men. The degree of "falleness or degree/state of sinfulness" is debatable but the foundation of my beliefs start there, and it is the goal of every believer to sin less, all the while knowing we will not be sinless.

Your points are well made and I agree on the premise but our agreement separates when the sinful state of man is not considered in the condemnation of the Church and other organizations. It is my belief that Christ's Church is infallible. Those of us that make up that Church are.....not (infallible). Therein lies the problem. To condemn the Church for the sinful acts of man is tantamount to condemning a wrecked car because it would not remained parked! I KNOW this logic appeals to you. It is not within you to agree on or even acknowledge the infallibility of the Church, I understand that, but at the same time it is also within you to understand my point and, yet, not agree with it. I'm OK with that.

Mine is not to convince, but to clearly explain to those who share my desire for the truth that is revealed in Christ.
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