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Old 06-19-2011, 01:07 PM  
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God has shown His loving kindness to me and I can't stand by and have you spit in his eye.
I refrain from the use of "It" for those same reasons. The word has dismissive connotations I prefer to avoid. That doesn't mean I think of God as sexual either because that seems entirely unnecessary for God.

I am open to alternatives however because none I've heard encompass the majesty of the Being. To ascribe sexuality to God is to limit the unlimited.
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:43 PM  
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Originally Posted by blucher View Post
I refrain from the use of "It" for those same reasons. The word has dismissive connotations I prefer to avoid. That doesn't mean I think of God as sexual either because that seems entirely unnecessary for God.

I am open to alternatives however because none I've heard encompass the majesty of the Being. To ascribe sexuality to God is to limit the unlimited.
The transgender community has the same issue with personal pronouns. "They", "Them", "Their", etc, used as singular pronouns, is generally considered the most feasible solution, as it doesn't require learning a new set and incorporating it into one's vocabulary.
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:47 PM  
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I just wanted to let you folks know that although I am not actively posting in here, I am reading everyone's thoughts, and appreciate them all. I'm also sure there are many others doing the same!
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:55 AM  
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Dear Orc: I had offended you and I appologize. The "IT" reference to God was not meant, that I call God by such . It was that you objected at my referring to God as a HE/SHE you even suggested Princess?( What ?) the prospect of the feminine offends you so much? The Holy Spirit does have feminine characteristics assigned by the way. I do not believe He has a sex. He (and I shall refer to Him as He , from here on ,as YOU would. God is a SPIRIT, a Life sustaining Force what is the need of gender for HIm?
I do not spit in the eyes of this Great Majesty as you put it in such an ugly way.
As for the books , I choose the ones that my spirit connects to, they tend to be not dogmas, but in the traditions of Eastern Philosophies, and writings of great spititual masters of the Western world. When I want to read books, I pick a book ,not read posted Articles.
Yes, there are readers of the same conviction as you are and share in that belief. I for one do not , so I do not belong here.
So as not to offend you or anyone else ,
I bid you Adieu ORC
God be with you. :-)
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:15 AM  
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ORC:
One more appology,I attributed the comment "mother-daughter -princess "to You.
It was Hillmans comment. :-(
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:11 PM  
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In regard to God, and the doctrine of election

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Originally Posted by treasurecoast View Post
Dear Orc:
Yes, there are readers of the same conviction as you are and share in that belief. I for one do not , so I do not belong here.
So as not to offend you or anyone else ,
I bid you Adieu ORC
God be with you. :-)
Now this is about the case in regard to God, and the doctrine of election.

All people were guilty and condemned. For wise reasons, which God has not communicated to us, he determined to bring a portion at least of the human race to salvation. This he did not intend to leave to chance and hap-hazard. He saw that all would of themselves reject the offer, and that unless some efficient means were used, the blood of the atonement would be shed in vain.
He did not make known to people who they were that he meant to save, nor the reason why they particularly were to be brought to heaven. Meantime he meant to make the offer universal; to make the terms as easy as possible, and thus to take away every ground of complaint. If people will not accept of pardon; if they prefer their sins; if nothing can induce them to come and be saved, why should they complain? If the doors of a prison are open, and the chains of the prisoners are knocked off, and they will not come out, why should they complain that others are in fact willing to come out and be saved? Let it be borne in mind that the purposes of God correspond exactly to facts as they actually occur, and much of the difficulty is taken away. If in the facts there is no just ground of complaint, there can be none, because it was the ?intention of God that the facts should be so.?



Hope you enjoyed. Questions?
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:41 PM  
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Now this is about the case in regard to God, and the doctrine of election.

All people were guilty and condemned.
The assumption that people are inherently evil is one of the most offensive prejudices that has ever been perpetuated against mankind.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:43 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
The assumption that people are inherently evil is one of the most offensive prejudices that has ever been perpetuated against mankind.
Sinfulness and it's resident guilt is a foundational concept, couched in faith, that validates the (our) need for salvation. The human condition mandates that offense be taken when we compare ourselves with the perfect characteristics of God. That "offense" you feel is what believers choose to eliminate by seeking/accepting Christ as their mediator with God. A "sinful" believing Christian needs Christ's work to be able to stand before God and His perfectness. Our "offenses" leave us in condemnation....in choosing Christ we receive commendation.

While we speak of chasms between believers and non-believers, we are really not that far apart. We can either choose to remain "offended" or choose to accept Christ. I fully realize that "the" choice is easier said/typed than done, but when viewed through the lense defined as the work of Christ (persecuted, tortured, crucified, bore our sins)....why should our work (A mere choice to be like Him.) be any easier than His work for us?
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:01 AM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Sinfulness and it's resident guilt is a foundational concept, couched in faith, that validates the (our) need for salvation.
It is an artificial concept, created by certain religions. There is no evil, no "sinfulness" inherent in the human condition. So yes, it is the foundation of salvation religions. It's also a false premise.
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The human condition mandates that offense be taken when we compare ourselves with the perfect characteristics of God.
No. The human condition does not mandate this. The religion mandates this. I'm not offended by the idea of a perfect entity any more than I'm offended by someone being smarter than me or stronger than me. I'm offended by the idea that humanity is inherently evil and therefor deserving of whatever punishment we are to receive.
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That "offense" you feel is what believers choose to eliminate by seeking/accepting Christ as their mediator with God.
Agreed. Believers choose to be offended by the beliefs of their religion, and turn to the rules prescribed by that religion to overcome that offense.
Quote:
A "sinful" believing Christian needs Christ's work to be able to stand before God and His perfectness. Our "offenses" leave us in condemnation....in choosing Christ we receive commendation.
"It's OK that he hurts me; he loves me, and I'm such a bad person."

Everything on this page is equally applicable to salvation religions as it is to abusive persons:
Help for Abused & Battered Women: Domestic Violence Shelters & Support

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Why doesn?t she just leave? It?s the question many people ask when they learn that a woman is being battered and abused. But if you are in an abusive relationship, you know that it?s not that simple. Ending an important relationship is never easy. It?s even harder when you?ve been isolated from your family and friends, psychologically beaten down, financially controlled, and physically threatened.

If you?re trying to decide whether to stay or leave, you may be feeling confused, uncertain, frightened, and torn. One moment, you may desperately want to get away, and the next, you may want to hang on to the relationship. Maybe you even blame yourself for the abuse or feel weak and embarrassed because you?ve stuck around in spite of it. Don?t be trapped by confusion, guilt, or self-blame. The only thing that matters is your safety.

If you are being abused, remember:
You are not to blame for being battered or mistreated.
You are not the cause of your partner?s abusive behavior.
You deserve to be treated with respect.
You deserve a safe and happy life.
Your children deserve a safe and happy life.
You are not alone. There are people waiting to help.
Fortunately, religion is on the decline in this world. People are far less likely to condemn their friends and neighbors for straying from religious belief today than they were just a few years ago. Unfortunately, there are staunch adherents ready and willing to perpetuate the cycle of abuse against those who try to get away from it.

Quote:

While we speak of chasms between believers and non-believers, we are really not that far apart. We can either choose to remain "offended" or choose to accept Christ. I fully realize that "the" choice is easier said/typed than done, but when viewed through the lense defined as the work of Christ (persecuted, tortured, crucified, bore our sins)....why should our work (A mere choice to be like Him.) be any easier than His work for us?
You've presented a false dichotomy. You've left the options of "eternal punishment at the hands of god" and "accepting Christianity" on the table, but there are other options. We can rid ourselves of the offense simply by discarding the religion. Take the kids, walk out the door, and never look back.

What offends me is the insidious, insipid belief that all people are created evil, deserving of divine, eternal retribution. I'm not offended by most of the subsequent beliefs, especially as they've been watered down to remain acceptable to modern audiences. What offends me is the downright hateful foundation required to build a salvation religion.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:17 AM  
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Rival,
You repeatedly go back to your rant against "religion" to make your points. Most would agree that "religion", an institution of man, is corrupt. "Religion" is not the choice, it is merely a manner/process/tradition. Using religion as the foundation of your argument is tantamount to repeatedly defending the un-truth that a VW Beetle can out haul an industrial dump truck! You can argue the point all you want but there will be only two prevailing opinions as a result. One, the opinion that sustains those who also rely on flawed reasoning, and two, the opinion that religion is neither the answer or the problem. While one group desperately holds on to a reasoning that convicts and offends them, the other chooses not religion but the one thing that unites all flawed Christian faiths, Christ.

I could, like you, go line for line, and make an opposing statement of perceived fact but I won't. My points were clearly stated within what I believe to be true. My goal is not to convince you, or anyone else, of these facts...just share them.

You make some very good points and I enjoy considering your responses. I would like to continue these debates but I would also like to elevate the cerebral frame work as well. I'm not suggesting doctrine, that wouldn't be fair, but intellectual honesty might result in a more profitable exchange. I learn from each of your posts. They are a tremendously encouraging!
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