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Old 06-25-2011, 11:49 AM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Yeah, the original builders of the Tower of Babel were of the same opinion concerning prayer. Ain't it good to have others "in your court"!
The Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan are self-proclaimed Christians. Somehow, I don't think you consider these people to be "in your court", despite the far greater commonality between you and them - you're both contemporary, self-proclaimed Christians - than between atheists and the characters in an ancient story.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:15 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
The Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan are self-proclaimed Christians. Somehow, I don't think you consider these people to be "in your court", despite the far greater commonality between you and them - you're both contemporary, self-proclaimed Christians - than between atheists and the characters in an ancient story.
don't forget hitler was a catholic as well and made many references about god in mein kampf....
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:44 PM  
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
don't forget hitler was a catholic as well and made many references about god in mein kampf....
Side note: add "self-proclaimed" - otherwise the discussion usually devolves into "No he wasn't/Yes he was".

I think the point is that poor comparisons, whether indisputably evil theists to typical theists or atheists to evil atheists, serve very little purpose.

Stalin was an atheist, and arguably worse than Hitler. But both of us atheists would heartily decry Stalin's version of morality, just as the vast majority of people, christian or not, would decry Hitler's.
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:51 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
The Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan are self-proclaimed Christians. Somehow, I don't think you consider these people to be "in your court", despite the far greater commonality between you and them - you're both contemporary, self-proclaimed Christians - than between atheists and the characters in an ancient story.
Actually, yes, ANY proclaimed Christian, in a broad sense, is "in my court". While my flesh screams condemnation, my spirit releases the authority of judgement to Jesus.

Do I agree with the Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan on any level, I'd say possibly. I say "possibly" because if they are in fact Christians, and Jesus is Lord in their lives, it shows in them (Their actions and words.) differently than in myself and the other Christians I've experienced. I'm sure there are other "Christians" that, at times, based on my words and actions, doubt my level of faith. We (Christians) are not perfect though we are expected to be because our Savior is. It is my hope that, Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan, if they are in fact Christians, work out their relationship with Christ that more reflects what scripture defines as a Christian.

As for the atheist and ancient characters comparison, although intriguing, that was not my intention in application. I merely, apparently very poorly, was appreciating the likeness in the two as as result of RedJeep's statement: "as the centuries move on there is less we have to pray about/for as we know ways to handle situations, instead of praying for rain we build reservoirs and irrigation methods, instead of praying for health we have medicine and antibiotics, instead of praying for a health baby we again have medicine to and nutritional knowledge..."

The statements just rang true with the history of the human condition, specifically, the people of biblical Babel, proclaiming they didn't need God and could in fact build a tower to "be" like gods, at His level. We have "this", and we do "that" as a result of His mercy. To say prayer is no longer necessary, because of "our" efforts/advances reveals an attitude revealed at Babel....not to mention the intellectual dishonesty of the post. As I write this there are floods devastating lives and communities, there are babies dieing, there are droughts, there are people dieing all at the same time that man is supposedly in control. Was my comparison a perfect fit, no, but please will someone bump my thread titled "Are Atheist Really That Stupid". Someone say Internet, television, radio...................

At least PM him and offer to proof his comments before he posts them. If not for me, for every atheist on this forum!
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:37 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Actually, yes, ANY proclaimed Christian, in a broad sense, is "in my court". While my flesh screams condemnation, my spirit releases the authority of judgement to Jesus.

Do I agree with the Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan on any level, I'd say possibly. I say "possibly" because if they are in fact Christians, and Jesus is Lord in their lives, it shows in them (Their actions and words.) differently than in myself and the other Christians I've experienced. I'm sure there are other "Christians" that, at times, based on my words and actions, doubt my level of faith. We (Christians) are not perfect though we are expected to be because our Savior is. It is my hope that, Westboro Baptist Church and the Ku Klux Klan, if they are in fact Christians, work out their relationship with Christ that more reflects what scripture defines as a Christian.

As for the atheist and ancient characters comparison, although intriguing, that was not my intention in application. I merely, apparently very poorly, was appreciating the likeness in the two as as result of RedJeep's statement: "as the centuries move on there is less we have to pray about/for as we know ways to handle situations, instead of praying for rain we build reservoirs and irrigation methods, instead of praying for health we have medicine and antibiotics, instead of praying for a health baby we again have medicine to and nutritional knowledge..."

The statements just rang true with the history of the human condition, specifically, the people of biblical Babel, proclaiming they didn't need God and could in fact build a tower to "be" like gods, at His level. We have "this", and we do "that" as a result of His mercy. To say prayer is no longer necessary, because of "our" efforts/advances reveals an attitude revealed at Babel....not to mention the intellectual dishonesty of the post. As I write this there are floods devastating lives and communities, there are babies dieing, there are droughts, there are people dieing all at the same time that man is supposedly in control. Was my comparison a perfect fit, no, but please will someone bump my thread titled "Are Atheist Really That Stupid". Someone say Internet, television, radio...................

At least PM him and offer to proof his comments before he posts them. If not for me, for every atheist on this forum!
His comments stand well enough on their own. If you missed that one, I'll restate: Praying for a child's health does no more today than it did 2000 years ago.

Today, we have a far greater understanding of medicine. There is a reason that the bible placed no value on an infant under 1 month of age. The mortality rate of newborns was exceedingly high. Prayer did nothing to lower that rate; the inventions and discoveries of mankind reduced it drastically.
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:49 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Ad Hominem arguments are not persuasive. We can go call eachother names, tell everyone how miserable/sinful/evil/boring the other party is, but doing so doesn't get either of closer to any sort of valid knowledge or truth.

You avoid dealing with the subject matter by raising a red herring. I did no name calling.

You are interested in truth? I've been giving you lots of truth but your refuse it.


Again, reliance on "mankind is evil", and another threat of infinite punishment. I will never, of my own free will, condone terrorism by giving into blatant threats, and I would kindly ask you to stop making them.
Are you claiming that God is a terrorist?
Are you threatened by the warnings that God is sending you? Sure looks that way!
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:06 AM  
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Originally Posted by Old Rugged Crosser View Post
You avoid dealing with the subject matter by raising a red herring. I did no name calling.
You used an ad hominem argument. You argued against my qualifications, not against my arguments. You called me bitter, and suggested that my arguments were compelled by my bitterness.Such an argument is no better a means of arriving at a truthful conclusion than calling eachother names.
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You are interested in truth? I've been giving you lots of truth but your refuse it.
Truth is independent of the viewpoint of the believer. You have offered no truth, only a suggestion that people follow your faith.
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Are you claiming that God is a terrorist?
No. I am claiming that the use the threat of divine punishment as an incentive for belief is a form of terrorism in the most literal sense. No entity claiming to be god has threatened me with divine punishment. Many people, yourself included, have made that threat.
Quote:
Are you threatened by the warnings that God is sending you? Sure looks that way!
Not in the slightest. I'm annoyed that people continue to spread religion with threats. Such behavior is unbecoming a civilized person, let alone a deity.
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:39 PM  
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RA, It will be interesting but sad to see the look on your face on that final day as you try to use that argument of logic with your Judge. Only because of your refusal to listen to ours. Go on thinking your smarter than the rest. You will find out.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:09 PM  
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Originally Posted by Old Rugged Crosser View Post
RA, It will be interesting but sad to see the look on your face on that final day as you try to use that argument of logic with your Judge. Only because of your refusal to listen to ours. Go on thinking your smarter than the rest. You will find out.
More ad hominem, more threats.

I've listened to your theory. I find the foundational belief to be vile and disgusting, even by human standards, let alone the standards "god" allegedly set of himself. Sure, a lot of the rest of it is great - love thy neighbor, love thy enemy. A lot of these are great moral precepts. But the foundational belief; the idea that mankind is fundamentally evil and deserving of punishment. That belief sets the stage for salvation, which justifies everything else.

Looking at the world, we find numerous belief systems. Most end up with the same moral precepts. It would seem that these are a component of humanity, not of Christianity, not even of theism.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:43 PM  
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Originally Posted by Old Rugged Crosser View Post
RA, It will be interesting but sad to see the look on your face on that final day as you try to use that argument of logic with your Judge. Only because of your refusal to listen to ours. Go on thinking your smarter than the rest. You will find out.
a campaign of fear......

Sad when religious people have to come up with threats like that to get people to follow me, If that works for you say I got enough people that know you to agree that the flying spaghetti monster commands your blind faith, why is that any less valid? no proof of either one, yes one is older and has more followers, but both are absurd.

the way you look at it is all wrong, you don't look at the harm religion does ion this reality and say to yourself any "bad" points are for "other" people, the "non-believers" and they will pay after death but in reality after death is nothing, no fairy tales, no afterlife, and then it just comes down to what you did while here, what people remember of you, what you did to actually improve the world, or help the next generation position themselves to improve the world, and we don't get there by abiding by restrictions coming from a 2000 year old book written by man.
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