If God is so big and almighty why would he give a damn what different ways we can offend each other with our hands. It's such a petty thing to argue about and just another example of christian fear mongering. In any case, the symbol we were originally talking about is sign language for "I love you" and with the thumb tucked in it is for the Longhorns.
Bickering over such petty BS is one of the reasons I've grown such a distaste for Christianity. Maybe we should start a new thread about another religion, I'm interested in hearing what it means to be a wiccan. Otherwise I might assume that wiccans fly on brooms and make spells in big, black cauldrons. Sounds like fun!
Start a thread . I am interested as well actually.
&don't let the crazies of his fan club get you down. Christianity is a private relationship from what I feel.
Each December, I vowed to make Christmas a calm and peaceful experience.
I had cut back on nonessential obligations -
extensive card writing,
endless baking, decorating,
and even overspending.
Yet still, I found myself exhausted,
unable to appreciate the
precious family moments, and of course,
the true meaning of
Christmas.
My son, Nicholas, was in kindergarten
that year. It was an exciting
season for a six year old.
For weeks, he'd been memorizing songs
for his school's "Winter Pageant."
I didn't have the heart to tell him I'd be working
the night of the production.
Unwilling to miss his shining moment, I spoke with his
teacher. She assured me there'd be a dress rehearsal
the morning of the
presentation.
All parents unable to attend that evening were
welcome to come then.
Fortunately, Nicholas seemed happy with the compromise.
So, the morning of the dress rehearsal, I filed in ten minutes
early, found a spot on the cafeteria floor and sat down.
Around the room, I saw several other parents quietly
scampering to their seats.
As I waited, the students were led into the room.
Each class, accompanied by their teacher, sat cross-legged
on the floor. Then, each group, one by one, rose to perform their song.
Because the public school system had long stopped referring to the
holiday as "Christmas," I didn't expect anything other than fun,
commercial entertainment songs of reindeer, Santa Claus, snowflakes and good cheer.
So, when my son's class rose to sing, "Christmas Love,"
I was slightly taken aback by its bold title.
Nicholas was aglow, as were all of his classmates,
adorned in fuzzy mittens, red sweaters, and bright
snow caps upon their heads.
Those in the front row- center stage - held up large letters,
one by one, to spell out the title of the song.
As the class would sing "C is for Christmas,"
a child would hold up the
letter C. Then, "H is for Happy," and on and on,
until each child holding up his portion had presented
the complete message, "Christmas Love."
The performance was going smoothly, until suddenly,
we noticed her; a small, quiet, girl in the front row
holding the letter "M" upside down - totally unaware
her letter "M" appeared as a "W".
The audience of 1st through 6th graders snickered at
this little one's mistake. But she had no idea they
were laughing at her, so she stood tall, proudly holding her "W".
Although many teachers tried to shush the children,
the laughter continued until the last letter was raised,
and we all saw it together.
A hush came over the audience and eyes began to widen.
In that instant, we understood the reason we were there,
why we celebrated the holiday in the first place,
why even in the chaos, there was a purpose for our festivities.
For when the last letter was held high, the message
read loud and clear:
"C H R I S T W A S L O V E"
And, I believe, He still is.
Amazed in His presence... .humbled by His love.
"Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them -- bring them here and kill them in front of me." --jesus [pronounced hey-sus] (Luke 19:27)
Yeah, that invites "love"!!
----
"If jesus had been on earth, he would not even have been a priest."
--Hebrews 8:4
----
"Everyone who speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven."
Luke 12:10
AND
"Whosoever blasphemes against the holy spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
Mark 3:29
So, for all you christians that believe your weekly sins/transgressions are forgiven, your ticket to hell is waiting.
----
Please EXPLAIN the missing years of the life of jesus from age 12 to age 30.
Seems NO ONE has to date which gives credence to the fact that jesus is but a Myth and as such is bound by Mythological verisimilitude.
----
The apostle paul wrote about jesus 40 years after jesus died yet FAILED to mention ANYTHING preceding the crucifiction, therefore jesus no more existed as a Human than did the Mythological Beings of Greece.
Also note that MANY at the time couldn't be certain WHEN jesus lived (as much as 100 year difference) therefore adding substantial credence to the MYTHOLOGICAL positing.
Characteristics in Mythology and jesus have astoundingly comparative qualities, such as:
virginal birth....which hadn't happened since jesus, so go figure.
magical abilities, like Hercules.
born again.
Dionysus, for example, ascended to heaven.
etc.
Please quantify results with verifiable Tomes discounting religious tomes.
----
Thank You.
Now the fun continues!!
---- CHEERS!!
__________________
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH!!
All Women are Ladies till They Prove otherwise!!
"Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them -- bring them here and kill them in front of me." --jesus [pronounced hey-sus] (Luke 19:27)
Yeah, that invites "love"!!
----
"If jesus had been on earth, he would not even have been a priest."
--Hebrews 8:4
----
"Everyone who speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven."
Luke 12:10
AND
"Whosoever blasphemes against the holy spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
Mark 3:29
So, for all you christians that believe your weekly sins/transgressions are forgiven, your ticket to hell is waiting.
----
Please EXPLAIN the missing years of the life of jesus from age 12 to age 30.
Seems NO ONE has to date which gives credence to the fact that jesus is but a Myth and as such is bound by Mythological verisimilitude.
----
The apostle paul wrote about jesus 40 years after jesus died yet FAILED to mention ANYTHING preceding the crucifiction, therefore jesus no more existed as a Human than did the Mythological Beings of Greece.
Also note that MANY at the time couldn't be certain WHEN jesus lived (as much as 100 year difference) therefore adding substantial credence to the MYTHOLOGICAL positing.
Characteristics in Mythology and jesus have astoundingly comparative qualities, such as:
virginal birth....which hadn't happened since jesus, so go figure.
magical abilities, like Hercules.
born again.
Dionysus, for example, ascended to heaven.
etc.
Please quantify results with verifiable Tomes discounting religious tomes.
----
Thank You.
Now the fun continues!!
---- CHEERS!!
All good questions and easily answered. The easiest approach would be for you actully read the bible.....or you could try Google.
Please, read the bible, and I'm not being the slightest bit facetious. Isaac Asimov was right - It is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
I'm always amused when criticism of Christianity through citation of biblical atrocity is invariably countered with suggestions to read the bible.
"I skimmed through this book, and while it had some good parts, there were some horrible obscenities advocated. Things like racism, sexism... The positive messages are intermingled and frequently lost amid the deplorable exhortations."
"Well, you're just not reading it right."
It's obviously easy to get the "wrong" message from the bible, as evidenced by the alleged confusion of every skeptic who has ever read it, quoted it; as evidenced by every self-proclaimed Christian who commits atrocities in the name of God and Jesus. Sure, the book gives us a lot of good advice. So do a lot of books:
Quote:
A man does not die for something which he himself does not believe in.
Quote:
Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election.
Quote:
For when a people is not willing or able to fight for its existence-- Providence in its eternal justice has decreed that people's end.
Quote:
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
Quote:
For the greater a man's works for the future, the less the present can comprehend them; the harder his fight, and the rarer success. If, however, once in centuries success does come to a man, perhaps in his latter days a faint beam of his coming glory may shine upon him. To be sure, these great men are only the Marathon runners of history; the laurel wreath of the present touches only the brow of the dying hero.
I selected quotes that I felt you and most self-proclaimed Christians would agree with. These quotes should show that we can cherry pick "positive" messages from just about any source. But the presence of a few positive points in a book - whether the Bible or Mein Kampf, must NEVER justify the adoption of other, atrocious passages in that book.
The congregation of the church down the street from me and the Westboro Baptist Church both claim to receive their marching orders from god through the bible. The danger of the bible is that both the good and the atrocity are considered divine commandments, when in fact it is the minds of men who determine which to follow. Morality is defined in the minds of men; the bible insulates men from the consequences of their moral choices by assigning them to god as they understand him.
__________________
We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
We're in agreement for the most part. All believers and non-believers are guilty of an eisegetical approach to scripture. That holds true, as in your example of Mein Kampf (and the like), as well.
Where we separate in agreement is in the "decisons of men" being dependent on the leadership, or influence, of their minds. While I agree that the mind is radically involved, it is the heart (motives, conscience, convictions, asperations, etc.) that the mind yeilds to.
With that being said, every mind and "heart" are different in appreciations and expressions. Merely reading the bible will not necessarily bring one to belief, just as merely reading Mein Kampf will not make one a Nazi. Now, if one reads Mein Kampf with motivations and asperations to be a Nazi.....then the likelyhood of success is high. This holds true for the bible as well.
It has been my experience that if someone reads the bible with the genuine goal of finding a knowable God, while understanding that an finite imperfect being will have obstacles to fully knowing a infinitly perfect God, that the "cheery picking" you mentioned becomes more of a reason to search rather than reason to reject.
To eisegetically "cherry pick" scripture is wrong, regardless of your "picking". The same holds true for Mein Kampf.
__________________
A nobody telling everybody about Somebody.
It has been my experience that if someone reads the bible with the genuine goal of finding a knowable God, while understanding that an finite imperfect being will have obstacles to fully knowing a infinitly perfect God, that the "cheery picking" you mentioned becomes more of a reason to search rather than reason to reject.
"My very educated mother just served us nachos". Nothing of that phrase has any inherently significant relationship to the planetary bodies, and yet, chances are exceedingly good that every English-speaker who reads that phrase immediately conjures up the names of 8 planets. Our thoughts are abstractions. We utilize analogy, fiction, thought experiments. We talk about cats, poison, and geiger counters. I know a girl who once believed that a little tiny band lived in the glove box of her dad's car, and the knobs on the radio were just to tell them what to play. I knew a boy who once believed that electrical sockets contained hot lava, and if you upset them by poking them - or even coming to close to them - they would pour it out on you. He anthropomorphized the electrical outlet behind the couch, believing if he "prayed" to it, asking it not to dump lava on him, it would allow him to crawl through without burning him alive. (That boy was me, age 3... It's one of my earliest memories, and comes from my parents explaining that they could "burn" me, and from me being "burned" once from poking and prodding a live outlet)
When my son was that age, I taught him about electrical outlets in a similar manner, explained why he shouldn't touch them in a manner he was capable of understanding. The abstraction that electrical outlets will spew lava was passed on.
The idea of god is nothing more than a remnant of this sort of abstraction, passed on, handed down.
I had healthy superstitions about electrical outlets. The first time I watched my dad replace one, I was afraid he was going to get burned up! I always knew that poking them with a metal object was incredibly bad, and there he was, jamming a screwdriver into one!
My reaction to my dad trying to use a screwdriver on an electrical outlet was justified within my own mind, but absolutely absurd in reality. So is it with reliance on God as anything beyond a fictitious entity existent solely within our own minds.
If someone takes a stroll through their own imagination in search of a fiction, they're going to find a fiction. If they choose to read a book while they do it, they will describe that fiction in the terms used in that book.
__________________
We work together every damn day. --Jon Stewart
If someone takes a stroll through their own imagination in search of a fiction, they're going to find a fiction. If they choose to read a book while they do it, they will describe that fiction in the terms used in that book.
I think we are saying the same thing.....for different reasons. Mine is God centered...yours is not. That shouldn't be taken as a negative...just different.
__________________
A nobody telling everybody about Somebody.
I do read and comprehend. You need to remember that the books of religion were writen on a time when words didn't mean what they do know. (1) People were not as smart as they are now. (2) You can not go by a book that was written thousands of years ago. (3) Hell even the bible is a list of books written and rewritten over hundreds of years. Each one different than the one before. (4) How many people actually live the old testament? (5) Should we really beat our wives?
(1) Au Contraire Mon Ami, People were smarter THEN than they are now. They had unpolluted Air, Water, Food, Environment UNLIKE the "intelligence" of today.
(2) A 1,000 years or a 1,000 days make no difference.
In 1,000 days or 1,000 years, I wonder, how anything written in these times will be comparative or may they as well be similarly discounted?
(3) Same can be said about many books SINCE THEN.
Dictionaries and Encyclopedias change constantly and those are Books, so why not religious tomes.
(4) You might be surprised....and maybe not.
Don't the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites and similar other Peoples follow the Old Ways?
MANY christians seemingly believe the O. T. wasn't about their god and there are those religious wonders that believe Man walked with Dinosaurs, so there are plenty of odd thinkers and believers about. The O. T. brought upon Man the N. T. because, gosh, we don't want a book that deems sleeping with ones Daughter(s), killing ones Brother, annihilating a People is acceptable in the current and future society.
(5) "Nothing says I LOVE YOU like a busted lip". --seen on either I-40 (between Statesville and Winston-Salem) or I-77 (between Charlotte and Statesville) in NC on a Billboard--
CHEERS!!
__________________
__________________
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH!!
All Women are Ladies till They Prove otherwise!!
. I am interested as well actually. 
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