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Old 02-17-2011, 10:58 AM  
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I'm saying rape happens, all the time,everywhere, war, servicemen, city, rural, the solution is not to remove women because they are being raped.

The solution is to end rape. The solution is to end the rape culture. The solution is to have rape resources, the solution is not to remove women from the army.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:09 AM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
I'm saying rape happens, all the time,everywhere, war, servicemen, city, rural, the solution is not to remove women because they are being raped.

The solution is to end rape. The solution is to end the rape culture. The solution is to have rape resources, the solution is not to remove women from the army.
I will not argue that "ending rape" would not be the ideal solution. I just believe that simply placing higher levels of punishment will just not be enough to end the complications involved with the co-ed setup. And if there are "resources" out there that provide a more foolproof way of knowing whether it was voluntary or not then by all means enlighten me. And heck, we could use it to prevent all kinds of prosecution mistakes....
Placing higher levels of punishment on the offenders or more aggressive prosecution will likely result in any male servicemember being afraid of being falsely accused (for whatever reason). Yes, that will likely reduce the cases of rape, but displaces it with these other problems.
I could be mistaken, but isn't rape almost impossible to prove? Sure, you can fairly easily prove that there was sexual interaction perhaps but whether it was voluntary or not.... Let's say thay just made the penalty alot worse, and pursued "rapists" very agressively... Who's to say some female doesn't get involved with someone over her and then comes along and says "either you _______________ or I will accuse you of sexual assault."
Now, I know you will say something like "oh, well that can happen outside of the military and you can't remove women from all situations....and so on."
I agree, on both points. All I am saying is that BEFORE THE WOMEN WERE INTEGRATED IN, IT WAS NOT THE ISSUE IT IS NOW (for the military). Also, the military has enough cr@p to deal with without having to fool with all of this. And again, of course if you could just "change the culture of rape" then sure, by all means lets do that if it eliminates it. Heck, let's eliminate child molestation, and theft, and murder, and child abuse, and ......well, you get the picture.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:22 AM  
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False accusations are a product of crime and justice, not just rape, the problems you are stating are the same across the board, regardless of the crime.

Granted, rape accusations, like all victim crimes, can be alleged without the crime being committed. That is why we have courts. They decide what's right wrong, guilty, innocent.

You can prove rape, it's not a gentle thing, there are tears, blood, skin under the nails, bruising, semen, vaginal fluids, in fact it's one of the easiest crimes to prove, the problem is that women don't come forward fast enough for rape kits to be properly put together, as having you vagina splayed open for semen collection after you have been raped must be terrible.

You have to clearly define what consent is. Can she say yes? Did she say yes? If not, it's rape.

Then you punish severely. You also implement punishment for false accusations.

Will it stop? Nope. It hasn't yet. Rape is a problem with all humanity and some higher primates, it was a fundamental tactic for warfare for thousands of years, but we have to stop it, not ignore it, not restrict people because it happens.

People with guns can shoot each other. People with vagina can get raped, so we need to remove them? Same logic.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:34 AM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
False accusations are a product of crime and justice, not just rape, the problems you are stating are the same across the board, regardless of the crime.

Granted, rape accusations, like all victim crimes, can be alleged without the crime being committed. That is why we have courts. They decide what's right wrong, guilty, innocent.

You can prove rape, it's not a gentle thing, there are tears, blood, skin under the nails, bruising, semen, vaginal fluids, in fact it's one of the easiest crimes to prove, the problem is that women don't come forward fast enough for rape kits to be properly put together, as having you vagina splayed open for semen collection after you have been raped must be terrible.

You have to clearly define what consent is. Can she say yes? Did she say yes? If not, it's rape.

Then you punish severely. You also implement punishment for false accusations.

Will it stop? Nope. It hasn't yet. Rape is a problem with all humanity and some higher primates, it was a fundamental tactic for warfare for thousands of years, but we have to stop it, not ignore it, not restrict people because it happens.

People with guns can shoot each other. People with vagina can get raped, so we need to remove them? Same logic.
Again, I could be mistaken but I do not think it is as easy to prove as you presented. Maybe if the reporting was immediate, I don't know. And the gun comparison is not the same. Now, if it was legal to shoot someone because the "victim" likes it (see the comparison?) then it would be a similar problem. He said she said.... Well, with the guns is could be he, she, he, he, you get the picture (I guess it can with rape too).

Oh, and really the rape thing is not the only complication involved with the co-ed setup. I imagine that in a combat situation the defense of the threatened female siuation could arise. I know it isn't phrased well... But I think you know what I mean. The male servicemembers will likely treat the females differently (not necessarily worse) just because that is the way the male instinct has been wired for 1000s of years.
I just think there are many many complications involved with the co-ed setup.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:16 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
Again, I could be mistaken but I do not think it is as easy to prove as you presented. Maybe if the reporting was immediate, I don't know. And the gun comparison is not the same. Now, if it was legal to shoot someone because the "victim" likes it (see the comparison?) then it would be a similar problem. He said she said.... Well, with the guns is could be he, she, he, he, you get the picture (I guess it can with rape too).
.
Not at all. The way it reads is women like being raped. Please clarify before I move on to other points.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:02 PM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
Not at all. The way it reads is women like being raped. Please clarify before I move on to other points.
Okay, let me break it down:

Only way to compare would be IF someone liked to be shot (consensul shooting..(? (I know, silly))=Consentual sex.

And conversly,murder (nonconsentual shooting (again, silly))= rape (non-consensual sex.)

Make sense now? I know, kind of a silly comparison... That is my point.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:22 PM  
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You can hunt. Shooting for pleasure (consensual shooting).

My analogy is apt.

My point is simple.

We have to learn to not rape ladies, instead of removing those ladies.

How are we advancing if our solution to rape is to remove 50% of the population?

That don't make no sense.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:34 PM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
You can hunt. Shooting for pleasure (consensual shooting).

My analogy is apt.

My point is simple.

We have to learn to not rape ladies, instead of removing those ladies.

How are we advancing if our solution to rape is to remove 50% of the population?

That don't make no sense.
I too believe that we must learn to not rape ladies. I agree fully.
Women have always been "50% of the population" but they have not always been in combat roles and side by side in the armed services. I will say again, I just think that there are problems inherent to the co-ed situation that CANNOT be avoided in a co-ed situation. Unless of course EVERYONE can learn to behave. I guess I just don't have as much faith that all of mankind can learn to do right all the time. Ideally, of course that would be the solution.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:41 PM  
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Originally Posted by Funetical View Post
My point is simple.
I understand that your point is that having an all male combat force is the same as having an all male civilian society.... I feel that is somewhat of an innacurate (if not absurd) comparison for this discussion.

In civilian life, people can choose who to live in unobstructed close quarters with. (in other words, if you live in an apartment bldg, at least you have locked doors to protect you from the folks near you). I have not been in the military, so if someone has who will speak up, correct me if in fact the military life is exactly like civilian life..
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:26 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I too believe that we must learn to not rape ladies. I agree fully.
Women have always been "50% of the population" but they have not always been in combat roles and side by side in the armed services. I will say again, I just think that there are problems inherent to the co-ed situation that CANNOT be avoided in a co-ed situation. Unless of course EVERYONE can learn to behave. I guess I just don't have as much faith that all of mankind can learn to do right all the time. Ideally, of course that would be the solution.
You don't think we as a society can learn to not rape? You think our young men in uniform can't be taught to not rape?

Is it the human race you feel is bad, or just dudes?

Not a one of those ladies was raped on patrol. They weren't hunkered down in a bunker and all of a sudden they were raped. The were in their barracks, which even if you are not in combat roll, you still live in, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I understand that your point is that having an all male combat force is the same as having an all male civilian society.... I feel that is somewhat of an innacurate (if not absurd) comparison for this discussion.

In civilian life, people can choose who to live in unobstructed close quarters with. (in other words, if you live in an apartment bldg, at least you have locked doors to protect you from the folks near you). I have not been in the military, so if someone has who will speak up, correct me if in fact the military life is exactly like civilian life..
That's not my point at all.

Where did I say that?

My point is ladies no get raped.

Rape bad.
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