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Old 02-23-2011, 02:04 PM  
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If you think that the minimum wage should be increased or even a good idea, then you should consider raising it to $50/hour so that everyone can live a good life. Oh, but then all the costs will go up to make up for that and then $50/hour won't be anything. If you don't think that raising the minimum wage to $50 is acceptable, then you whole argument for minimum wage tends to fall apart.

If people find the wage unacceptable, then they go find another job. If employers can't hire for the wage that they are offering, then they will have to increase it.

Do you really think that EVERY job is worth minimum wage?

It is funny that people think that the market can't work correctly and instead muck about trying to make "corrects". There are those who work in entry level jobs and seem to have no desire to change, but want to keep getting raises every year.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:12 PM  
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Originally Posted by MistDaemon View Post
If you think that the minimum wage should be increased or even a good idea, then you should consider raising it to $50/hour so that everyone can live a good life. Oh, but then all the costs will go up to make up for that and then $50/hour won't be anything. If you don't think that raising the minimum wage to $50 is acceptable, then you whole argument for minimum wage tends to fall apart..................
With what you said....
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:57 PM  
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Originally Posted by MistDaemon View Post
If you think that the minimum wage should be increased or even a good idea, then you should consider raising it to $50/hour so that everyone can live a good life. Oh, but then all the costs will go up to make up for that and then $50/hour won't be anything. If you don't think that raising the minimum wage to $50 is acceptable, then you whole argument for minimum wage tends to fall apart.

If people find the wage unacceptable, then they go find another job. If employers can't hire for the wage that they are offering, then they will have to increase it.

Do you really think that EVERY job is worth minimum wage?

It is funny that people think that the market can't work correctly and instead muck about trying to make "corrects". There are those who work in entry level jobs and seem to have no desire to change, but want to keep getting raises every year.
Bingo. There are a LOT of jobs that people would gladly do for much less than minimum wage. Right now, the only means for getting these jobs accomplished is to 1. Pay more than they are worth; 2. Ship them overseas; 3. Pay for them on a contractual basis instead of an employee basis. (Whether you can do this for a particular job is entirely at the whim of the IRS)

An awful lot of the economic problems we face in the US are due to the fact that our manpower costs are so bloody expensive compared to the rest of the world. It's a vicious circle - we increase wages/our manpower costs increase, we charge more for our products/consumer costs increase, we increase our wages....
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:01 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Bingo. There are a LOT of jobs that people would gladly do for much less than minimum wage. Right now, the only means for getting these jobs accomplished is to 1. Pay more than they are worth; 2. Ship them overseas; 3. Pay for them on a contractual basis instead of an employee basis. (Whether you can do this for a particular job is entirely at the whim of the IRS)

An awful lot of the economic problems we face in the US are due to the fact that our manpower costs are so bloody expensive compared to the rest of the world. It's a vicious circle - we increase wages/our manpower costs increase, we charge more for our products/consumer costs increase, we increase our wages....
And don't forget that we want everything for cheaper too!! Oh, and buy american!

No, really. You got it right on the head there. That is the formula for inflation.... (I guess you have to add in there somewhere the Feds screwing with interest rates and such....)
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:41 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
I don't know that minimum wage should be entirely abolished, but there is definitely a need for "less than living" wage. There are plenty of senior citizens, housewives, etc. who are looking for a 9-to-5 hobby. Go down to your local hardware store; every one I've ever visited has had some people who work not because they need to, but because they want something to do during the day. They enjoy it. They'd do it for half the pay, because money isn't their reason for working.

Now look at high-school kids - most have their needs already met by mommy and/or daddy; they can afford to work for little more than gas money.

Minimum wage can NEVER be a "living wage". There's no fixed "maximum charge" for even essential consumer products. These prices will ALWAYS climb out of reach of minimum-wage earning power.


I understood this when I worked minimum wage jobs. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon (Can you imagine the society where that would be a legitimate job title?) to comprehend the idea that when people have more money chasing the same products, the cost is going to go up. Of course I didn't make waves about it, for the same reason we don't complain about bank errors in our favor. And it's not going to change anytime soon, for the same reasons.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. This is the way our economy works. Anyone can work the system. When the price of everything is going to rise inexorably, the prudent person gets rid of his money, converting it into things that will appreciate along with inflation. Things like gold, diamonds, real property, successful companies, etc.
See, I don't buy that at all. If a senior needs something to do out of bordom, become a volunteer at your local animal shelter, or meals on wheels. It also doesn't take rocket science to realize that high school kids and even adults have to stay with mommy and daddy because they can't make it out there! You are absolutely correct that minimum wage is not even close to a living wage. Rive, I'd love to take my extra cash and uncashed checks laying around and put that into gold or guns or retirement, but I'm too preoccupied with eating!!!! You guys can certainly have your opinions and I know that people manuever their personal information to suite the arguement, it's just human nature. That being said, I refuse to believe that any normal thinking person out there struggling as a low income or low middle income worker, could be against the common man such as you are. These days, the economy sucks, and as people loose their unemployment, some are forced to take suck butt paying jobs. I was out of unemployment for a month when those dear democrats fought for yet another extension for me, but while waiting, I went in for a job interview and they didn't even want my resume, but wanted to know if I'd work for $8.13 an hour! I did not get the job. HEY! I got the news going and the subject right now is the price of gas going up! Did they raise the minimum wage? I don't know what to say. I'm certain that these discussions come up just to stick the knife in deeper, to those less fortunate. People just need to insure that they have something that someone else doesn't have. I won't get upset about it. I just hope you don't complain about the illegal Mexicans, or your dwindling paychecks due to inflation, or when your job heads over to India. I'll be the first to laugh at you!
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:35 PM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Bingo. There are a LOT of jobs that people would gladly do for much less than minimum wage. Right now, the only means for getting these jobs accomplished is to 1. Pay more than they are worth; 2. Ship them overseas; 3. Pay for them on a contractual basis instead of an employee basis. (Whether you can do this for a particular job is entirely at the whim of the IRS)

An awful lot of the economic problems we face in the US are due to the fact that our manpower costs are so bloody expensive compared to the rest of the world. It's a vicious circle - we increase wages/our manpower costs increase, we charge more for our products/consumer costs increase, we increase our wages....
There are too many safety nets today. During the depression, people would do about anything just to have a job. Today they collect unemployment or go on welfare, collect social security or move back in with their parents rather than take a job they really don't want.

Return Social Security to what it was intended to be, dump the welfare system and replace it with workfare. Give kids who figure they cannot fail because there is always some program they can get on to bail them out a job opportunity before they get out of high school. Teach kids that they are responsible for their own well being, not the government, and maybe in 30 years things will turn around!
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:03 PM  
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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
See, I don't buy that at all. If a senior needs something to do out of bordom, become a volunteer at your local animal shelter, or meals on wheels.
Makes sense, right? And yet, EVERY hardware store within 5 miles of me has at least two pensioned senior citizens who do it because they like to work, not because they need the money.

Do you really think the greeter at the front door of your local Wal-Mart really needs that job? (I'm sure there are some, but the vast majority do it because it gets them out of the house.)
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It also doesn't take rocket science to realize that high school kids and even adults have to stay with mommy and daddy because they can't make it out there! You are absolutely correct that minimum wage is not even close to a living wage.
Nor should it be.
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Rive, I'd love to take my extra cash and uncashed checks laying around and put that into gold or guns or retirement, but I'm too preoccupied with eating!!!!
The point was that there are ways to get ahead, despite inflation caused by minimum wage. Squirrel your money away in a savings account. Put 10 hours worth of your income into a savings account and wait a year; at that time, it will be worth 9 hours of your income. Wait another year and it will be worth 7 hours. That's the effect of inflation.

Put 10 hours worth of your income into a true asset - gold, guns, diamonds, successful companies on the stock market, real-property, etc. The effects of inflation mean that in a year, it will still be worth 10 hours of your income. In another year, it will still be worth 10 hours of your income.

The point was that it ultimately doesn't matter what minimum wage does - wage slaves are going to stay poor, while the rich are going to get richer. Give everyone on the planet a million dollars and watch the price of gasoline.
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You guys can certainly have your opinions and I know that people manuever their personal information to suite the arguement, it's just human nature. That being said, I refuse to believe that any normal thinking person out there struggling as a low income or low middle income worker, could be against the common man such as you are.
The "common man" earns significantly more than minimum wage. We've already decided this - minimum wage is not a living wage. Raising minimum wage doesn't help the common man, it drags him back down, puts his wages closer to the wages of the "hobby worker" and the menial laborer. Raising the minimum wage is a de facto demotion for the common man.
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:11 AM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
.....The "common man" earns significantly more than minimum wage. We've already decided this - minimum wage is not a living wage. Raising minimum wage doesn't help the common man, it drags him back down, puts his wages closer to the wages of the "hobby worker" and the menial laborer. Raising the minimum wage is a de facto demotion for the common man.
Increasing minimum wage is just a "feel good" action. It doesn't actually increase the SPENDING POWER for the minimum wage worker. It basically only decreases the spending power for all of those that make more than minimum wage. So it is really a "stealth" tax on all others. Actually, inflation is also a "stealth" tax. We are constantly losing spending power (inflation) due to the activities of the federal reserve and our government handling of finances (including minimum wage increases).
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:34 PM  
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Greenville, SC
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Let me throw another log on this fire......

(part of one of his articles)

"...One might ask why teen unemployment, particularly among blacks, is so much higher than adult unemployment. The answer is simple. One effect of a minimum-wage law is that of discrimination against the employment of less-preferred workers. Within the category of less-preferred workers are those with low skills. Teens are disproportionately represented among such workers and are therefore more adversely affected by minimum wages. Black teens are disproportionately represented among teens with low skills and therefore share a greater burden of minimum wages.

One of the more insidious effects of the minimum wage is that it lowers the cost of racial discrimination. In fact, minimum-wage laws are one of the most effective tools in the arsenals of racists everywhere, as demonstrated by just a couple of examples.

During South Africa’s apartheid era, its racist unions were the major supporters of minimum wages for blacks. South Africa’s Wage Board said, “The method would be to fix a minimum rate for an occupation or craft so high that no Native would likely be employed.” In the U.S., in the aftermath of a strike by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen, when the arbitration board decreed that blacks and whites were to be paid equal wages, the white unionists expressed their delight. “If this course of action is followed by the company and the incentive for employing the Negro thus removed,” they said, “the strike will not have been in vain.”

Tragically, minimum wages have the unquestioned support of good-hearted, well-meaning people who become the useful idiots of charlatans, quacks and racists."

Walter E. Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University.

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Old 02-28-2011, 04:44 PM  
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[Musicinabottle;87347]Ahhhh, you guys just start these threads to stir up crap. I get from you the impression that a certain class of people are supposed to work for just enough money so that the company administrators can explode their business and be able to get all the perks due them on the backs of these minimum wage working idiots.
ALL of US idiots have to do something to support someone else.
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I say idiots, because if someone is making minimum wage, they must surely be a tard.
I comprehend literary prose and that you're not implying EVERYONE stuck at minimum wage is mentally/emotionally/physically challenged.
Since 10/10, I've been working at minimum wage with random snaps up to almost double minimum wage, yet mostly AT minimum.
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I suppose that in your rose colored glasses world, that if someone happens to be caught up in the high percentage of unemployed, that that's their own dam fault too?
I wasn't doing great but I was doing alright until latter '08 when my truck driving "career" ended.
I'm sure, somewhere in me life, I must have done some things incorrectly or chosen the wrong exits to be awarded with such misfortune (from late '08 to present) to become encumbered by the minimum wage monkey.

I've no idea what or where is a acceptable cap for minimum wage to be increased for as stated a few times, if such were accomplished, all other consumer costs would equally rise to produce the futility of the supposed gains.

The MAIN PROBLEM with becoming saddled by minimum wage is AGE.
REGARDLESS of many of US WITH VERIFIABLE EXPERIENCE(S), WE are usually considered overqualified and as such are tossed aside.
Those of US over 45 (or is it now over 40?) are sadly doomed as employers want younger people yet are having difficulties finding younger applicants that will actually do something apart from playing with themselves.

Minimum Wage is actually $7.25, and at 40 hours buys a reflection of what was affordable at $10.00, $12.00, $18.00 hourly, etc., ad infinitum, and when TAXES are taken, there is a echo remaining.

For whomever the naysayers represent regarding minimum wage earners being incompetent, try "living with that wage" for a mere 6 months and see then what procurements are feasible.

CHEERS!!
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