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Old 05-01-2012, 08:40 PM  
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how about all the greener energy efficient standards from the last energy crisis in the 70's? by some figures if we still used energy at the same we did then we would need 20% more of it......

just something to consider, what if we needed 20% more gas/electricity/coal? green energy i the long term will help us dramatically, the middle east is even making big jumps in renewable electricity and they have plenty of oil but they know the economic impacts of needing less for themselves so they can sell it to us
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:49 PM  
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how about all the greener energy efficient standards from the last energy crisis in the 70's? by some figures if we still used energy at the same we did then we would need 20% more of it......

just something to consider, what if we needed 20% more gas/electricity/coal? green energy i the long term will help us dramatically, the middle east is even making big jumps in renewable electricity and they have plenty of oil but they know the economic impacts of needing less for themselves so they can sell it to us
I agree with your second paragraph. The first paragraph I not so sure of (?). I was living in Hawaii at that time and remember gas rationing. Even plates, even days. Odd plates odd days. The only thing I remember for sure is the government setting fuel efficiency standards for the first time. Other than that I don't remember any moves towards green energy. Maybe in a private or corporate setting but not by the government. Could be wrong about that. After all that was 40 years ago. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:50 AM  
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I've lost count of the number of convoys I've seen driving down I-76 in the Akron area with three "oversize load" trucks each hauling a giant wind turbine blade, and a fourth truck hauling the giant hub. I don't know what wind farm they're hauling these things to, but it's got to be a big one.
Look into how much of all that equipment is subsidized by the govt. Look at how much the fed pays for the electric subsidy. Check and see how much invested former Tennessee gov Phil Bredesen is into it. There's a big wind farm in Ga that he's invested in.

I would love to see renewable energy sources that would work at my house, solar, wind, geothermal at affordable prices. It seems that the real green is our green dollars being thrown at technology that cannot sustain itself.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:50 AM  
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Look into how much of all that equipment is subsidized by the govt. Look at how much the fed pays for the electric subsidy. Check and see how much invested former Tennessee gov Phil Bredesen is into it. There's a big wind farm in Ga that he's invested in.

I would love to see renewable energy sources that would work at my house, solar, wind, geothermal at affordable prices. It seems that the real green is our green dollars being thrown at technology that cannot sustain itself.
So you're expecting green energy sources to be immediately profitable relative to fossil-fuel technology that has been around since the dawn of the industrial revolution? What other technology has *ever* worked that way?

The fact is that these technologies *are* commercially viable, and further R&D is only increasing that margin.

Here's what you don't seem to understand. You're assuming that the energy market is free. It's not. We're on the wrong end of a defacto monopoly in the global energy market. Organizations like OPEC control prices in the oil market. The benefit for them is to price oil as high as they can without creating an incentive to abandon oil. Whatever price would convince American consumers to switch to hybrid and electric and other alternative-fuel vehicles en masse, they undercut just slightly.

Investments in alternative energy can bring down transportation costs: lower the cost to recharge vehicles; produce hydrogen through electrolysis; convert coal and natural gas to gasoline and diesel via the Fischer-Tropsch process, etc. The *potential* for these investments to pan out is enough to force OPEC and the world-wide oil market to reduce their asking price on oil. They know that if we are able to make these technologies commercially viable, they will take a hit on their global exports.

Investments into green energy ultimately save us big bucks at the pump.

As far as home-based systems, you lose a lot of the economy of scale - large-scale systems are significantly more efficient than small-scale. However, home-based PV solar is at or a bit above parity with grid power. ("at parity" means, considering equipment costs over the life of the system, the total cost of the electricity produced is equal to the cost of grid power) Without a battery bank (backfeeding the grid during the day, relying on the grid overnight), solar is well above parity throughout much of the nation. Wind has been above parity for at least a decade. Geothermal heating/cooling has been above parity for the better part of a century. The issue is the initial installation and continuing maintenance of these systems.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:50 AM  
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I used to work at a truck stop on 71, where those rigs would stop for maintenance at times. We asked the guy hauling one of those hubs once what it was, and he explained. He also said they were headed to a warehouse to be stored, as the guy/group that bought them hadn't even gotten the permits for the land. I imagine that it went thru, that was 3.5 years ago...
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:13 PM  
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Investment into green energy just raises the national debt, something has to be viable in the marketplace before it will meet the test of time.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:32 PM  
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I would think that our dependency of oil would be the place to start. But instead they want to make windmill power plants everywhere and be stupid about it. The first place I would want to fund is mass transit and the law enforcement to make it safe, even if it takes three cops every ten seats.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:14 PM  
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Investment into green energy just raises the national debt, something has to be viable in the marketplace before it will meet the test of time.
Eddie, suppose it costs you (including your time and all expenses) $4 to create a box of ammunition. I can buy a similar box of factory ammunition for $12. You and I work out a deal, and I agree to pay $11.50/box from you, a profit of $7.50/box for you.

Suppose that I then purchase a handloading kit, and I work out how to produce my own ammunition for $9. I tell you that I'm canceling our current deal, as I can save $2.50 by doing it myself. You're not going to go out of business; you're going to agree to sell to me at $8.50. When I can buy ammunition from you at $8.50/box, am I going to produce any with my fancy new handloading kit at $9/box?

Using your logic, this handloading kit would be a waste of money, but the moment I buy it, I save $3/box for ammunition, because I can now compete with you at any price point above that.

This is why subsidies for green energy - even if it is not yet commercially viable - are a good idea. The more money we spend on R&D of green energy projects, the more market pressure we can place on foreign energy providers who are colluding against us. The more subsidized electric cars we are capable of putting on the road, the less OPEC can charge us for oil. The more Fischer-Tropsch plants we build, the less OPEC can charge us for oil. The more natural gas cars we put on the road, the less OPEC can charge us for oil.

One further note: Subsidizing domestic oil does not do this unless we also socialize domestic oil production by fixing domestic pricing. In a free market, domestic oil producers are going to basically match OPEC's prices unless and until domestic oil can fully meet our energy needs. We cannot produce the volume of oil OPEC produces, so where their prices lead, ours must follow.

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I would think that our dependency of oil would be the place to start. But instead they want to make windmill power plants everywhere and be stupid about it. The first place I would want to fund is mass transit and the law enforcement to make it safe, even if it takes three cops every ten seats.
I don't think mass transit fails because of crime; mass transit fails because it is inherently inconvenient for the majority of its potential users, and per-mile costs aren't any cheaper.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:45 PM  
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Alas, but our government has a poor success rate on any of its ventures. Its investments may sound good in theory but cronyism, greed and graft soon takes its toll, plus those in charge are just not that sharp in choosing where to invest. Then when one considers that we are spending almost 1.7 times revenue the hole deepens.
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:20 PM  
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
Alas, but our government has a poor success rate on any of its ventures. Its investments may sound good in theory but cronyism, greed and graft soon takes its toll, plus those in charge are just not that sharp in choosing where to invest. Then when one considers that we are spending almost 1.7 times revenue the hole deepens.
And we're back to misunderstanding debt. Wonderful.

But, if this is what you're concerned about, surely you would be interested in telling us what areas of the budget could be adjusted to improve the income-to-revenue ratio. Please, enlighten us.

At what oil price point is ethanol, or a variety of other green energy sources commercially viable? Why do you think our gasoline and diesel prices are a fraction of what Europe pays?
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