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Old 09-27-2011, 10:50 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I believe that the ones who get screwed "by no fault of their own" are a smaller number than most want you to believe...
Of course you believe that. You are forced to either believe that, or believe that your position is inhumane, unjust, and basically evil. I have no doubt that you BELIEVE you are correct.

The facts don't bear out your belief. The facts show that the vast majority of people who ever collect welfare benefits do so for less than 2 years. A small fraction of people receive benefits for greater than 5 years. Dismantling the program will get rid of that small fraction, yes, but it will do so by throwing that vast majority to the wolves.



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I also think that the number of "feeders" only grows the more you feed them. It is definitely unfortunate. It is unfortunate that our system discourages communities assisting
Our system IS community assisting. We ARE a community. We ARE assisting.

The system you're suggesting is not community assistance, but the means for someone to choose to opt out of providing such assistance. You are providing a means for people to separate themselves from their community.
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(I believe there would be more accountability in community assistance) and encourages nanny state mentality. I do like the idea of helping those truly in need. I have a hard time believing ANYONE with a car payment, cable, iphone, or a manicure is in need by "no fault of their own".
If a car is essential to their employment, they will have a car payment. If their office dress code requires manicured nails, they will have manicured nails. If their job requires a broadband internet connection at home, well, hopefully you get the idea. The fact that you can't believe someone can need and have these things and still not be able to support themselves and their family says more about the limits of your imagination than it does about their needs in order to thrive in our society.

Public assistance has a tough problem - it has to provide enough to allow a person to support themselves, but it also has to provide a disincentive for its use, lest people choose to rely on public assistance instead of their own efforts. YES, people abuse the system. NO, we will never catch them all. NO, their abuse does not justify the elimination of a system that helps so many.


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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I will also chime in on the immigration issue. Just to be clear I DO NOT HOLD IT AGAINST THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS WHO COME INTO THIS COUNTRY. The reason, is that I understand that there is a "better life" over here and that I would probably do the same thing. My problems are with the systems we have in place that cost us piles of money and jobs. I find a solution to most of it would be the Fair tax. Do away with all taxes but sales tax. Voila. The illegals would then pay their fair share based on what they spend. Oh, and since employers would no longer gain from hiring the illegals then more americans would find work.
There are far too many problems with FairTax. (It's not "the Fair tax" - it is "FairTax". There is no "the" in its title. There are literally infinite "fair" methods of taxation, and "FairTax" hardly meets the definition of "fair")

But, I like where you're going with it. Stop giving people incentive to accept criminally low wages by making it possible for them to legally pay taxes. Issue taxpayer IDs to anyone who asks for one, regardless of citizenship or immigration status. You can't get pissed off that someone doesn't pay taxes when you make it illegal for them to do so.

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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post
The fact remains, after ALL the name calling, after ALL feeling sorry for the "poor illegal" that if they come to the US illegally, they broke the law to get here and they are beaking the law by staying here and need to go to JAIL.
Of course! Throw them in jail! Doesn't matter that it costs taxpayers roughly $75/day to incarcerate someone in the US. Let's pay to have them locked up instead of just issuing them a taxpayer ID and collecting money from them.
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What is needed to do is . . .1. SHUT the borders down, don't make it so easy for them to sneak in
Yeah. Right. That's gonna be more expensive than locking them all up.
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2. STOP the incentives to come here illegally
The teapublicans are working on that one. They're busy destroying the entire American economy in a quest for vengeance against the HNIC. Once they destroy everything that makes America great, it will be Americans running south of the border looking for work.
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3. Come up with a Interstate ID system
SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!
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4. provide an easier route to come to the US LEGALLY
I've got it - you know those borders you closed? Open them. All those guards you posted? Fire them. Start passing out taxpayer IDs like halloween candy.
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Once this is done THEN we can start determining what about those here already illegally without amesty. Jail time then . . .?
Back to jail again, eh? And I suppose you want me to help pay for it, right?
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:13 AM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
Of course! Throw them in jail! Doesn't matter that it costs taxpayers roughly $75/day to incarcerate someone in the US. Let's pay to have them locked up instead of just issuing them a taxpayer ID and collecting money from them.

Yeah. Right. That's gonna be more expensive than locking them all up.

The teapublicans are working on that one. They're busy destroying the entire American economy in a quest for vengeance against the HNIC. Once they destroy everything that makes America great, it will be Americans running south of the border looking for work.

SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!

I've got it - you know those borders you closed? Open them. All those guards you posted? Fire them. Start passing out taxpayer IDs like halloween candy.


Back to jail again, eh? And I suppose you want me to help pay for it, right?
how can the teapublicans destroy an economy that Obama has brought down already?
You know something, you're absolutely right. You know all about it, sitting up there in Ohio don't you? You got no solutions, you got no idea of the magnitude of this situation, you're nothing but an anarchist who thinks you're safe up there. You are not, they will get to you too. You just want total chaos. That's what we do, criminals go to JAIL. Like I said YOU have NO IDEA up there and have never been near these borders. CLUELESS!!
BTW I've GOT MY PAPERS!!
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:39 AM  
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oops... Double post.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:43 AM  
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Originally Posted by rivalarrival View Post
......If a car is essential to their employment, they will have a car payment. If their office dress code requires manicured nails, they will have manicured nails. If their job requires a broadband internet connection at home, well, hopefully you get the idea.
I have never had a car payment and it is because I purchase CHEAP cars. You know, you can find a beater for less than $1000 dollars. When I refer to a car payment, I am referring to those that believe that when you buy a car it has to be newer and nice. Well, it doesn't. I also have not heard of a common job that requires cable television and I bet many recipients have that too. (I do not by the way)... Also, if someone has a job where broadband is required at home, then they likely make enough to get by on their own. Haven't heard of any burger joints requiring internet at home.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:59 AM  
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The problem too is that the law abiding citizens are not the ones coming over anymore either. They come here "just to feed their families" but to do that they steal ID's from Americans and either go exempt for taxes or high dependants for LOW taxes. Meanwhile the IRS finds the American and he/she pays up the nose in lawyer fees and tax consultants trying to get out of trouble and prove they don't owe Uncle Sam slam dunk amounts of buckage.
To just hand out little ID cards and grant them amnesty is rewarding them for their illegal actions and they begin to think that the quickest way to get ahead is to commit crimes. Jail & DEPORT
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:55 AM  
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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post
how can the teapublicans destroy an economy that Obama has brought down already?
How could Obama have brought it down if it is in better shape now than it was when he took office?
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You know something, you're absolutely right. You know all about it, sitting up there in Ohio don't you? You got no solutions, you got no idea of the magnitude of this situation, you're nothing but an anarchist who thinks you're safe up there. You are not, they will get to you too. You just want total chaos. That's what we do, criminals go to JAIL. Like I said YOU have NO IDEA up there and have never been near these borders. CLUELESS!!
BTW I've GOT MY PAPERS!!
You keep telling me to come on down there, get an idea of the scale of the problem. If it is as bad as you seem to think it is, and it's so nice up here in Ohio, you're free to come on up. What's that? Ohio ISN'T the land of milk and honey?

You complain about lazy people gaming the welfare system, and you criminalize people who work their asses off for less than minimum wage because less than minimum wage is better than what they had before.


Clueless? Nah. Dispassionate. You're too close to the "problem". Your "solution" is more of the same expensive ideas that created the problem in the first place. You don't realize that it is the fact that the "illegal" moniker is what gives them all their "advantages".

My solution is to remove those advantages. My solution is to work WITH human nature. The right likes to say that taxation is the greatest harm, well, show us. Tax the hell out of non-citizen workers, or invite them to leave. If you're right, these people should leave in droves. If I'm right, we'll have created a new revenue source and increased the tax base.

"Throw them in jail", "gas them in ovens" - it means the same thing: Treat certain humans as worthless garbage. Worse than garbage - garbage you just dispose of. Jail, you go out of your way, spending huge amounts of taxpayer dollars just to keep an immigrant off the streets. Again, the parallels between the tea party and the Nazi party are disturbing.
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:22 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I have never had a car payment and it is because I purchase CHEAP cars. You know, you can find a beater for less than $1000 dollars. When I refer to a car payment, I am referring to those that believe that when you buy a car it has to be newer and nice. Well, it doesn't.
Really? There is never any need for anyone to have a newer, nice car? Never a need for anyone to have to impress anyone else in order to get or keep a job?

I know what you're trying to say, but you don't realize that there are people who are best qualified to perform certain jobs that require manicured nails, newer cars. People for whom these things are essential tools, just as a hammer is to a carpenter.
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I also have not heard of a common job that requires cable television and I bet many recipients have that too. (I do not by the way)... Also, if someone has a job where broadband is required at home, then they likely make enough to get by on their own. Haven't heard of any burger joints requiring internet at home.
Right, because the only people who should be able to collect public assistance are those working at a burger joint. You're still looking at "welfare recipient" as a career option instead of what it is - temporary assistance. I know of a single mother on public assistance. She has a full-time job as a nursing assistant; she's enrolled in nursing school, getting her RN. She works herself ragged trying to pay rent and daycare. In a year, her son will be in first grade. While I am speaking of a specific woman, you'd never find her - there are millions of people in this situation.

You'll tell us "Well, she shouldn't have had kids if she couldn't support them" - and I'll show you police reports of the violence she endured before deciding to split up the family.

When you talk about eliminating public assistance, these are the things I think about. Paying out to some lazy, ungrateful slob doesn't bother me nearly as much as this woman having no option but to stay with, and keep her children living with a violent person.

The world isn't black and white. Everything is gray.
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:25 AM  
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Originally Posted by HiHood View Post
The problem too is that the law abiding citizens are not the ones coming over anymore either. They come here "just to feed their families" but to do that they steal ID's from Americans and either go exempt for taxes or high dependants for LOW taxes. Meanwhile the IRS finds the American and he/she pays up the nose in lawyer fees and tax consultants trying to get out of trouble and prove they don't owe Uncle Sam slam dunk amounts of buckage.
To just hand out little ID cards and grant them amnesty is rewarding them for their illegal actions and they begin to think that the quickest way to get ahead is to commit crimes. Jail & DEPORT
You're choosing the most expensive option possible. You look at handing out ID cards and stop pursuing criminal sanctions on them as a reward; I look at it as cutting our losses on a failed system.
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:27 AM  
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Does the teacher know what a NAZI really is? Maybe the teacher should be fired for illiteracy! Isn't a NAZI a fascist socialist as in National Socialist German Workers' Party?
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:29 AM  
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...........

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You are forced to either believe that, or believe that your position is inhumane, unjust, and basically evil. I have no doubt that you BELIEVE you are correct.
Yup
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