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Old 07-06-2011, 10:00 PM  
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Originally Posted by oldruggedcrosser View Post
To add my 2cents:


We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God ( Jesus) keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him."
This is a hard saying. An exegete would have tension over its use if used out of context. Scripture uses Paul as an example where a Christian will continue to sin (When compared to the sinless perfection of Jesus.) though the goal is resist it.
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:24 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
This a hard saying. An exegete would have tension over its use if used out of context. Scripture uses Paul as an example where a Christian will continue to sin (When compared to the sinless perfection of Jesus.) though the goal is resist it.
I can see this in the light of; if one is truly saved he will not "intentionally" go about sinning. And I also can see this in the light of; that it can be considered that grace has covered all sin from the moment of salvation and is considered to be sinless from that point forward. He is not a slave to the old nature but the new.

What you think?
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:59 AM  
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Originally Posted by oldruggedcrosser View Post
I can see this in the light of; if one is truly saved he will not "intentionally" go about sinning. And I also can see this in the light of; that it can be considered that grace has covered all sin from the moment of salvation and is considered to be sinless from that point forward. He is not a slave to the old nature but the new.

What you think?
Yes. Well stated.

I'm sure we're saying the same thing but there are those who will pick apart a slight miswording but it is my understanding that our sins never "go away" (in this world) making us "sinless". Believers, covered by God's grace through Christ's Work on the cross, are justified and made righteous through faith. Our sins will continue up until glorification where Christ's propitiation and our faith enables our sins to be "forgotten" (in a legal sense). Presently the sinful corrupt man of this world is in concert with the corrupt world. It is upon Perfection that all sin and corruption ceases to exist. Only in our perfected state are we fully righteous and sinless.


Nobody...............
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:11 AM  
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Someone offered the concept of "motive", did we purpose to sin or did we just stumble while on the path?
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:33 AM  
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Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
Someone offered the concept of "motive", did we purpose to sin or did we just stumble while on the path?
Interesting question..............I'd say the revealing human condition, wrapped in the grace of free will, exposed the original eternal and debilitating "stumble" for all men. Once the fall was realized, separation from Holy Perfection was established, and the path forward was that of generations of fallen people.

....then comes Jesus!

Edit = I re-read the post and the word "purpose" stuck out. It is my understanding that the "purpose" of the original sin was "to be like God". There is debate on that but either way I do not feel that a perfect being (man) would have purposely fallen. He knew the consequences but chose otherwise. Even today we rationalize the impact of what is wrong in our decisions. Seeking the will of God is challenging in this world...ignoring it is easy! Both have consequences now and for eternity.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:28 PM  
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Quote:
I can see this in the light of; if one is truly saved he will not "intentionally" go about sinning. And I also can see this in the light of; that it can be considered that grace has covered all sin from the moment of salvation and is considered to be sinless from that point forward. He is not a slave to the old nature but the new.

What you think?
I think it's an important question in light of the "Good News", easy salvation hocum so common in recent years. I was taught one can certainly fall from grace into sin but there are countless variations of how others see it including outsiders.

Quote:
ETERNAL SECURITY

This is The Most Destructive Doctrine in Protestant Christianity today. Started by Luther and His Reformers as "Salvation By Faith Alone", this Satanic Falsehood was renamed "Eternal Security" by the Baptist Clergy, commonly known as "Once Saved Always Saved", more wide-spread thruout The Bible Belt than Corn Stalks, White Gravy and Nascar.
HTML Code:
http://www.satansrapture.com/salvation.htm
This appears to be a hot potato issue.
A license to Sin?-license_to_sin.jpg 



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Old 07-07-2011, 03:39 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Yes. Well stated.

I'm sure we're saying the same thing but there are those who will pick apart a slight miswording but it is my understanding that our sins never "go away" (in this world) making us "sinless". Believers, covered by God's grace through Christ's Work on the cross, are justified and made righteous through faith. Our sins will continue up until glorification where Christ's propitiation and our faith enables our sins to be "forgotten" (in a legal sense). Presently the sinful corrupt man of this world is in concert with the corrupt world. It is upon Perfection that all sin and corruption ceases to exist. Only in our perfected state are we fully righteous and sinless.


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Hillman, On that point I would humbly disagree. It is upon "grace only" that we stand forgiven. Forgiven is Forgotten If it also included and required our "faith" then it would throw back to "our works" which we know does not have any merit. It depends upon Christ only lest we have something about to boast. Perseverance of the Saints states that all who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. On that I'm sure you agree.

I hope I haven't gotten off point?
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:39 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
I understand and use it....but, I hate the saying! It is the thorn in the side of a practicing lukewarm Christian. So many Christians want "the way they live their lives" to speak for their response to "the call". They feel that as long as they can act like a Christian their card gets punched. Proclamation is required. We are called to go out into the world and tell the Good News of the truth found in Jesus.

Nobody.........
Christians are pretty much like everybody else. They just spend a couple of hours once a week and give some money to keep the preacher's family and travel expenses paid up and go on about their business.

Christians:

Turn the other cheek
Walk the extra mile
Do unto others as they would like to be done unto
Love their neighbors
Love their enemies
Pray for those who curse and despise them
If sued in court for coat voluntarily give cloak
Take no thought for tomorrow(401K anyone)
Sell what they have and give it to the poor
According to Matthew 5:48 they are perfect

Add to that giving the 10% of everything they can get their hands on and VOILA!

I'm 77 years old and I've never met one
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:42 PM  
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Originally Posted by Hillman View Post
Yes. Well stated.

I'm sure we're saying the same thing but there are those who will pick apart a slight miswording but it is my understanding that our sins never "go away" (in this world) making us "sinless". Believers, covered by God's grace through Christ's Work on the cross, are justified and made righteous through faith. Our sins will continue up until glorification where Christ's propitiation and our faith enables our sins to be "forgotten" (in a legal sense). Presently the sinful corrupt man of this world is in concert with the corrupt world. It is upon Perfection that all sin and corruption ceases to exist. Only in our perfected state are we fully righteous and sinless.


Nobody...............
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldruggedcrosser View Post
Hillman, On that point I would humbly disagree. It is upon "grace only" that we stand forgiven. Forgiven is Forgotten If it also included and required our "faith" then it would throw back to "our works" which we know does not have any merit. It depends upon Christ only lest we have something about to boast. Perseverance of the Saints states that all who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. On that I'm sure you agree.

I hope I haven't gotten of point?
Understood and I agree on the basis of your response. All that you state is correct from a Calvinistic perspective. Where your feathers were rightfully ruffled was with a word grouping, "and our faith enables our sins to be "forgotten", that, unfortunately, was taken out of context. Again, I agree with your premise but if you re-read the preceding words you'll see, " Our sins will continue up until glorification where Christ's propitiation...". My point, obviously ill stated, was that glorification can only be accomplished as a product of the Work of Christ (ministry & cross) which is validated and assured by one's continued faith. In that context my hope is that those desiring to hear that faith alone (sola fida) is sufficient but only because of the sacrificial work of the Christ.

Also, "forgiven", as in sin, is not the same as no longer existent. You appear to be conservative in your writings (I'm, reluctant to say a Calvinist.), but the Calvin perspective of the result of a life lived, is relational to the rewards in heaven.

Thanks for the input....keep me on my toes!

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Old 07-07-2011, 07:28 PM  
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Hillman:

Quote:
Understood and I agree on the basis of your response. All that you state is correct from a Calvinistic perspective. Where your feathers were rightfully ruffled was with a word grouping, "and our faith enables our sins to be "forgotten", that, unfortunately, was taken out of context. Again, I agree with your premise but if you re-read the preceding words you'll see,
Yes, after re-reading in the red I can see what you are getting at.
Being called a Calvinist is not offensive to me. I have a Reformed Calvinist bent, but not a hyper Calvinist. I receintly read a article that would explain what I was trying to say only better. If I can find it again I think you would find it interesting. I will continue to look.

Blessings be!

EDIT: I found the statement:


Quote:
Charles Stanley, noted pastor and Bible teacher, said in his book Eternal Security--Can You Be Sure?, "If my faith maintains my salvation, I must ask myself, 'What must I do to maintain my faith?' For to neglect the cultivation of my faith is to run the risk of weakening or losing my faith and thus my salvation."

If good works are necessary to maintain faith, and the maintenance of faith is necessary for salvation, how can one avoid the conclusion that believers are saved by their good works?
Interesting thought isn't it?

I don't mean to be pickin nits but may I take another run at your statement. I believe that it is important to have a full understanding on this matter. Maybe we will reach agreement and maybe not. But I would like to discuss it again.
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