The Eternal Fate Of Mankind

[Dorph]

Was it really decided by two naked teens in a garden with an apple and a snake?

[Hillman]

Originally Posted by Dorph

Was it really decided by two naked teens in a garden with an apple and a snake?

Yes.....and no. Like most "talking points" that are used to slander other's beliefs, this one falls short. It is clear that you are grasping for truth because any other assumption would just reveal you as an................

Anyway....it's a long story not worthy of the intellectually void question. If I could explain you couldn't understand.

[Dorph]

Originally Posted by Hillman

Yes.....and no. Like most "talking points" that are used to slander other's beliefs, this one falls short. It is clear that you are grasping for truth because any other assumption would just reveal you as an................

Anyway....it's a long story not worthy of the intellectually void question. If I could explain you couldn't understand.

No...not at all. Ignorant, primitive mankind during the stone age falls short of everything:

Old Testament Death Penalty Sins

There are forty-two death-penalty sins in the Old Testament.

* Murder - Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14,20,23; Lev. 24:17,21; Num. 35:16-34; Deut. 19.

* Failing to circumcise - Gen. 17:14; Ex. 4:24,25.

* Eating leavened bread during feast of unleavened bread - Ex.
* 2:15,19.

* Smiting Parents- Ex. 21:15.

* Kidnapping - Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7.

* Cursing Parents - Ex. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.

* Negligence with animals that kill - Ex. 21:28-32.

* Witchcraft - Ex. 22:18.

* Bestiality - Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23-29; 20:15,16.

* Idolatry - Ex. 22:20.

* Making holy anointing oil - Ex. 30:33.

* Putting holy anointing oil on strangers - Ex. 30:33.

* Making the holy perfume - Ex. 30:38.

* Defiling the Sabbath - Ex. 31:14.

* Working on the Sabbath - Ex. 35:2.

* Eating the flesh of the peace offerings in
* uncleanness - Lev. 7:20,21.

* Eating the fat of sacrifices - Lev. 7:25.

* Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the tabernacle - Lev. 17:1-9.

* Eating blood - Lev. 17:10-14.

* Incest - Lev. 18:6-29; 20:11-22.

* Eating sacrifices at the wrong time - Lev. 19:5-8.

* Consecration of children to idols - Lev. 20:1-5.

* Spiritualism - Lev. 20:6,27.

* Adultery - Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-30.

* Sodomy/Homosexuality - Lev. 20:13.

* Relationship with a menstruous woman - Lev. 20:18.

* Whoredom - Lev. 21:9; Deut. 22:21,22.

* Sacrilege - Lev. 22:3.

* Refusing to fast on day of atonement - Lev. 23:29.

* Working on atonement - Lev. 23:30.

* Blasphemy - Lev. 24:11-16.

* Failure to keep the Passover - Num. 9:13.

* Presumptuous - Num. 15:30,31.

* Gathering firewood on the Sabbath - Num. 15:32,36.

* Failure to purify self before worship - Num. 19:13,20.

* False prophecy - Deut. 13:1-18; 18:20.

* Leading men away from God - Deut. 13:6-18.

* Stubbornness and rebelliousness - Deut. 21:18-23.

* Gluttony - Deut. 21:20-23.

* Drunkenness - Deut. 21:20-23.

* Backbiting - Deut. 17:2-7.

* False dreams and visions - Deut. 13:1-18.

[blucher]

False dreams and visions - Deut. 13:1-18.

You don't know me ? you never will. You never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it; I shall never undertake it. I don't blame anyone for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself.

? Joseph Smith, April 7, 1844.

FARMS did so in a phony-baloney document of its own, entitled "Moses, Moroni, and the Salamander," published in June 1985. (2)

It stands as the Keystone Cops of their religion--a burning testimony, if you will, of the lengths to which Mormon apologists are willing to go in proving just what toadies they, too, can be.
_____


Researching Righteous Reptiles

Let the FARMS spin begin:

"Martin Harris's letter of 23 October 1830 to Wm. W. Phelps (published in 'Church News,' 28 April 1985) has dismayed some people. . . .

"We may never know whether this description was an embellishment on the part of Harris, or an allegory employed by Joseph Smith, or whether Moroni somehow chose to appear to Joseph out of, or in the form of, a salamander. But since Phelps joined the Church after reading Harris' letter, he must not have found the allusion to a salamander very disconcerting.

"In fact, as new research is showing, the salamander has been thought for millennia to have supernatural and extraordinary powers." (3)
_____

Not to Worry: People Actually Once Thought Salamanders Lived in Fire.

The FARMS crew then offered the following "facts" to the faithful:

"Well into the 19th century, it was commonly believed that salamanders 'lived in, or were able to endure, fire.' . . . Long before, even Aristotle--of all people--reported [that the] '. . . salamander shows that certain animals are naturally proof against fires, for it is said to extinguish a flame by passing through it.' . . ." (4)
_____

Fanning the Flames: The Birthplace of the Salamander

FARMS' fabulous fiction continued:

". . . [S]alamanders were thought to be 'generated in fire.' The great Rabbi Akiba held to this view . . . Other rabbis, including the noted Rashi, debated whether the fire had to be heated for seven days, seven years or seventy years to produce a salamander that would appear walking and flying in the midst of the fire. . . ." (5)
_____


I See Salamander Spirits

It got even better:

". . . [S]alamanders were often associated with spirits. In Germany, salamanders were thought to be . . . weather-prophets . . . and house-protector spirits. . . . In the Middle Ages, the salamander denoted 'a being possessing the shape of a man, whose element was the fire, or who at least could live in that element. . . . Earth, air, fire and water, each had a spirit--for fire, it was the salamander." (6)
_____


The Still Small Salamander's Voice to Earth: This Is God Calling

Please, tell us more:

". . . [S]alamanders were associated with the voice of God and with the Holy Ghost! . . . [W]e find that the rabbis of the 9th Century A.D. and before believed that . . .

"[O]ne of these things God showed Moses on Mt. Sinai was the salamander . . . ' In 1841, the baptistry of Winchester Cathedral in England bore the figure of a salamander, alluding to the words, 'He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.' . . ." (7)
_____


Salamander Garments as Fire Insurance

Can you feel the burning in the bosom?:

"Since the salamander was said to endure fire, it was thought to protect others against burning, including hell-fire. The rabbis remarked that hell could not harm scribes . . . [and] flames cannot hurt one who is anointed with salamander blood . . . ' A similar popular belief seems to stand behind Austrian lore relating the salamander to the atoning suffering of Christ. The Zohar . . . mentions protective garments of salamander skin." (8)
_____


Holy Flying Toad, Batman! You Mean Jesus Was a Salamander?

Now the FARMS fantastic voyage really took off:

"Not far removed from these ideas . . . are [those] depicted by the biblical phrase 'fiery flying serpents.' Were they 'salamanders'? A brass model of this reptile symbolized Jesus himself, who commanded Moses to put it up on a pole, so the people who had been bitten could look to it and live . . . ." (9)
_____


Behold, I Am the Resurrection and the Salamander

As man is now, God once was; As God is now, man may likewise become a salamander:

"Eternal life and resurrection were also symbolized by the salamander. The Arabic word for both the salamander and the phoenix, which could die and rise again out of its own ashes, was samandal. . . ." (10)
_____


Remember, People Are Salamanders, Too

FARMS then tried to give salamanders a human face:

"People too were sometimes called salamanders. Shakespeare calls a fiery-red face a 'salamander.' . . .

"[S]oldiers who courageously exposed themselves to fire in battle [were also called salamanders]. Thomas Brooks in 1670 wrote, 'God's people are true salamanders, that live best in the fire of afflictions.' . . ." (11)
_____


The Good, the Bad and the Salamanders

FARMS nevertheless then cautioned against reckless trusting of toads:

"Not all salamanders were good, however. The ['spectacularly colored'] poisonous ones . . . were linked with evil spirits. But the non-poisonous good ones were
white or grey-brown." (12)
_____


I Saw A Salamander Flying in the Midst of Heaven

FARMS finally tried to make a purse put of a reptile's ear, valiant flame-out attempt to throw a positive light on the notion of heavenly messengers descending to Earth as reptiles bring tidings of great joy:

"Some of us may wince at the suggestion that an angel of God should be associated with, or described as, a salamander.

"But to people then, no image or description would beter fit the apearnce of a brilliant white spiritual being, once a valiant soldier, now dwelling in a blazing pillar of light, shockingly pure and glorious, speaking with the voice of God while flying through the midst of Heaven, than the salamander! Moroni should be flattered. . . ." (13)
_____


Spinning for Salamanders: Stay Tuned, There's More to Come

FARMS researchers promised even more exciting discoveries:

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/FARMS_defends_holy_salamanders/

[havasu]

Salamanders are cool!

[blucher]

I'd have preferred gold plated salamanders instead of Moroni

[oldruggedcrosser]

Originally Posted by Dorph

No...not at all. Ignorant, primitive mankind during the stone age falls short of everything:

Old Testament Death Penalty Sins

There are forty-two death-penalty sins in the Old Testament.

* Murder - Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14,20,23; Lev. 24:17,21; Num. 35:16-34; Deut. 19.

* Failing to circumcise - Gen. 17:14; Ex. 4:24,25.

* Eating leavened bread during feast of unleavened bread - Ex.
* 2:15,19.

* Smiting Parents- Ex. 21:15.

* Kidnapping - Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7.

* Cursing Parents - Ex. 21:17; Lev. 20:9.

* Negligence with animals that kill - Ex. 21:28-32.

* Witchcraft - Ex. 22:18.

* Bestiality - Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23-29; 20:15,16.

* Idolatry - Ex. 22:20.

* Making holy anointing oil - Ex. 30:33.

* Putting holy anointing oil on strangers - Ex. 30:33.

* Making the holy perfume - Ex. 30:38.

* Defiling the Sabbath - Ex. 31:14.

* Working on the Sabbath - Ex. 35:2.

* Eating the flesh of the peace offerings in
* uncleanness - Lev. 7:20,21.

* Eating the fat of sacrifices - Lev. 7:25.

* Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the tabernacle - Lev. 17:1-9.

* Eating blood - Lev. 17:10-14.

* Incest - Lev. 18:6-29; 20:11-22.

* Eating sacrifices at the wrong time - Lev. 19:5-8.

* Consecration of children to idols - Lev. 20:1-5.

* Spiritualism - Lev. 20:6,27.

* Adultery - Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-30.

* Sodomy/Homosexuality - Lev. 20:13.

* Relationship with a menstruous woman - Lev. 20:18.

* Whoredom - Lev. 21:9; Deut. 22:21,22.

* Sacrilege - Lev. 22:3.

* Refusing to fast on day of atonement - Lev. 23:29.

* Working on atonement - Lev. 23:30.

* Blasphemy - Lev. 24:11-16.

* Failure to keep the Passover - Num. 9:13.

* Presumptuous - Num. 15:30,31.

* Gathering firewood on the Sabbath - Num. 15:32,36.

* Failure to purify self before worship - Num. 19:13,20.

* False prophecy - Deut. 13:1-18; 18:20.

* Leading men away from God - Deut. 13:6-18.

* Stubbornness and rebelliousness - Deut. 21:18-23.

* Gluttony - Deut. 21:20-23.

* Drunkenness - Deut. 21:20-23.

* Backbiting - Deut. 17:2-7.

* False dreams and visions - Deut. 13:1-18.

I haven't verified your claims, but I am going to assume that you are correct. That was the Old Testament --primitive-- God was showing that He meant business. Aren't you glad that Jesus went to the cross to eliminate trying to live up to that? That is where some of our moral standards come from. Those things were spelled out as wrong behavior.

[Blank_doubt]

Originally Posted by Dorph

Was it really decided by two naked teens in a garden with an apple and a snake?

YES!!
WE are ALL Incestuous since, according to such theory, ALL MANKIND derived from 2 Beings, therefore using LOGIC (which isn't very apparent in biblical tomes), EVERYONE is related to everyone and as such there are no strangers, just FAMILY MEMBERS we have no recollection of knowing.
Your wife is really your sister, your husband is your brother.
Puts a new twist on the garden fallacy.--might be from where the saying A family that lays together, stays together originated--however the bible is rife with hostilities towards fellow Humans while being praised and demonized by the sole proprietor/diety.

[Dorph]

Originally Posted by Blank_doubt

YES!!
WE are ALL Incestuous since, according to such theory, ALL MANKIND derived from 2 Beings, therefore using LOGIC (which isn't very apparent in biblical tomes), EVERYONE is related to everyone and as such there are no strangers, just FAMILY MEMBERS we have no recollection of knowing.
Your wife is really your sister, your husband is your brother.
Puts a new twist on the garden fallacy.--might be from where the saying A family that lays together, stays together originated--however the bible is rife with hostilities towards fellow Humans while being praised and demonized by the sole proprietor/diety.

YouTube - ‪George Carlin - Religion is bull****.‬‏

YouTube - ‪George Carlin - Religion is bull****.‬‏

[rivalarrival]

We're all cousins, at some level or another. If you and your significant other each trace your ancestors, it's quite likely that you and they have common ancestors within 10 generations.

Take a look at these two pages:
Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia