honestly the problem i see with gays serving openly has nothing to do with their interaction with straight people. i agree with motorcharge on most points. there are reasons that males and females are separated at times, basic for example. it's a distraction from the mission. how do you separate gays from gays? thats the problem i see. its not gay vs. straight interaction, its gay vs. gay interaction.
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You can quote founding fathers all you like, but look at who actually wrote the First amendment, James Madison.
Heck, Madison's own summary of the First amendment blatantly says to keep Government and religion totally separate.
Fact is the person who wrote the darn thing did so to keep Religious and Political matters completely separate from each other. I'm not saying we weren't founded partly on Christian principles, but it doesn't change the fact that religion should have absolutely no bearing on Government whatsoever.
And how many of them act like the stereotype you're portraying all gay people as? The majority of gay people you'd never even know were gay unless they told you. Acting like the stereotype you're portraying doesn't make them gay and being gay doesn't mean they act like that. Acting like that in and of itself isn't appropriate for the military and should be dealt with accordingly.
Sounds a lot like segregation to me. Pretty sure the SCOTUS ruled separate but equal wasn't equal at all.
Doesn't change the fact that you're judging many by the actions of few. So by this rational should we not let blacks in the military because all black people are lazy and criminals?
But you stated that a lot of our forefathers were atheists or agnostic. So far you only have one.
As for my gay acquaintances, they do act like that, just not around me. But to be honest, I only hang around them at the football games and if we are riding our mountain bikes. The thing is, we all have our likes and dislikes. You can’t make people get along. I’m sure there are types of people that you just don’t like. Being forced to hang out and work in close highly tensed situations would make you go over the edge. You would end up saying or doing something that in any other situations you wouldn’t do. Now with that in mind, put a gun in your hand, picture yourself in a foreign country and being shot at. All things that would max out any feelings a person might have. I feel DADT is saving lives.
Segregation in the military is a must. That’s why our military is the world leader. Without structure you could never obtain the success rate that we have. It keeps the solder from stepping out of line and jeopardizing the mission at hand. It keeps favoritism to a minimum. There is never moment you don’t know what your job is or what to do. If the High ranking solder goes down the next in command takes over. All others follows no questions asked. No nothing is ever perfect but the US military is as close as it gets.
Everyone judges everybody one way or another. It’s human nature.
honestly the problem i see with gays serving openly has nothing to do with their interaction with straight people. i agree with motorcharge on most points. there are reasons that males and females are separated at times, basic for example. it's a distraction from the mission. how do you separate gays from gays? thats the problem i see. its not gay vs. straight interaction, its gay vs. gay interaction.
Oh darn, I didn't think about that one. Two lovers in combat, one gets hurt the other trips out the whole squad could get killed. That's a good point and I don't mean that in the AHA since. Again, I don't know what or how I really feel about it. But that does make you think.
Let's try to keep this a good, civil argument guys.
A lot of people, including myself, feel very passionately about this subject - just remember, we're all friends here just debating a subject and seeing some different points of view!
Motorcharge, I definitely see your point of view.
Another good aspect, as you guys were talking about, is how to segregate gays and non-gays once, and if, the DADT policy is repealed. Men and women are kept apart in barracks situations - so do we also keep gays in their own seperate barracks, or with the women (I have a feeling THAT would stir up some controversy as well)? Certainly we couldn't keep them with the men - the government just wouldn't allow that sort of risk of distraction.
So what to do, what to do.
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Well I don't quite know what I posted that needed to edited. There was no name calling or anything. I simply pointed out a scenario that would show what your point was about.
But you stated that a lot of our forefathers were atheists or agnostic. So far you only have one.
I should have said secular instead of Atheist. Either way if you look up quotes from Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and a few others it's well documented that they intended a completely secular form of government and felt religion was and should remain a personal issue.
I only bothered with Madison to show the intent of the first amendment as he's the one who wrote it. If you want more beyond that feel free to google it, you'll get tons of good info.
This sites a little too biased for my taste, but it's got some good info.
As for my gay acquaintances, they do act like that, just not around me. But to be honest, I only hang around them at the football games and if we are riding our mountain bikes.
So what you're saying is they act appropriate for the time and place? What makes you think that gay people can't do the same in the military?
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Originally Posted by 78BO
The thing is, we all have our likes and dislikes. You can?t make people get along. I?m sure there are types of people that you just don?t like. Being forced to hang out and work in close highly tensed situations would make you go over the edge. You would end up saying or doing something that in any other situations you wouldn?t do. Now with that in mind, put a gun in your hand, picture yourself in a foreign country and being shot at. All things that would max out any feelings a person might have. I feel DADT is saving lives.
But you look past your differences and work with what you have in common. You're both there to serve your country, that's a big commitment and good start imo. There's all kinds of stuff soldiers will disagree on, but they get over it and work together. What makes being gay any different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 78BO
Segregation in the military is a must. That?s why our military is the world leader. Without structure you could never obtain the success rate that we have. It keeps the solder from stepping out of line and jeopardizing the mission at hand. It keeps favoritism to a minimum. There is never moment you don?t know what your job is or what to do. If the High ranking solder goes down the next in command takes over. All others follows no questions asked. No nothing is ever perfect but the US military is as close as it gets.
Everyone judges everybody one way or another. It?s human nature.
I agree to an extent, but we've figured out how to work it out with every group so far, so why not gays? Simply having a different sexual preference shouldn't bar someone from military service.
Since there are already gays in the military serving honorably most of the fears are unfounded. Yes there will be a period of adjustment but that was also the case when blacks were allowed to serve and then women. Both of those groups were touted to be "detriments" to good order and discipline at the time. Now it is the standard. Historically some really excellent armies incuding the Greeks allowed or encouraged homosexuals in the military. Soldiers will fight hard for their buddies but even harder for a loved one. Yes I am in the military currently, no I am not gay, yes I have served with know homosexuals of both sexes without incident.
Since there are already gays in the military serving honorably most of the fears are unfounded. Yes there will be a period of adjustment but that was also the case when blacks were allowed to serve and then women. Both of those groups were touted to be "detriments" to good order and discipline at the time. Now it is the standard. Historically some really excellent armies incuding the Greeks allowed or encouraged homosexuals in the military. Soldiers will fight hard for their buddies but even harder for a loved one. Yes I am in the military currently, no I am not gay, yes I have served with know homosexuals of both sexes without incident.
First off, there's no 100% fact that says that the greeks encouraged homosexuality in their military affairs. There's a lot of speculation, especially after that politician tried to reference it last year to help out his case, but there's no proof - it's a theory.
Secondly, so you're saying we should send married couples into battle together, so that they fight harder to keep the other one alive? I mean, why not send fathers and sons together, too - that's a strong relationship we can use to our country's advantage.
I'm in the Marine Corps - What unit are you with down in San Antonio?
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First off, there's no 100% fact that says that the greeks encouraged homosexuality in their military affairs. There's a lot of speculation, especially after that politician tried to reference it last year to help out his case, but there's no proof - it's a theory.
Secondly, so you're saying we should send married couples into battle together, so that they fight harder to keep the other one alive? I mean, why not send fathers and sons together, too - that's a strong relationship we can use to our country's advantage.
I'm in the Marine Corps - What unit are you with down in San Antonio?
I will give you the Greek reference is a theory.
Married couple do go together; not on the "front lines" but with asemetric warfare anyplace could be the front line. More than once I have been in units with husband and wife combos. Lots of high school buddies join together and certainly do look out for each other; it is encouraged under the "buddy program" of enlistment. There are fathers and sons serving together as well. If my wife was in the foxhole next to me I would certainly be very motivated to keep her alive.
I am at Ft Sam with the Army Medical Dept Center and School.
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