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Old 02-10-2011, 04:21 PM  
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It's like arguing with the guy in the mirror!
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:31 PM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I never said you sound like a socialist. Do you think you sound like a socialist? (Please do not be offended. I don't want you to take this stuff too personally..)



The CEO has likely situated himself in a position of haveing high demand skills therefore he shall earn what the market will bear.



Again, positioned himself just so.



I cannot disagree fully about the chinese and Mexicans. Except for the fact that like I mentioned earlier, if the people (ALL of us) buy the less expensive products then the makers will use the cheaper labor. Do we, the american people, really expect the corporations to be the better party in the deal and hire more expensive labor on principal?? That even SOUNDS silly doesn't it??

What bothers me about the Mexicans is the illegality of it (that's a whole other topic).


Oh, and as far as people "supplementing" their income with credit cards?? If they have cable, a cellphone, or a car payment then I have ABSOLUTELY NO sympathy for them. (And I am aware that that is not always the case) Personal decisions make most of the difference in peoples lives.
There's nothing wrong with socialism at all! My wifes medicare and social security serve us just fine. You had just mentioned that I was anti profit. I'm not. I owned a business at one time. About CEOs.... Of course! I just said that I think it's immoral, the amounts they get. Even Jesus doesn't get that much money! Doctors... not disputing. I was talking about the other people in the neighborhood and their wages. About the labor.....It's already in action! I'll put my point in a bit simpler terms that reflect my opinion. In the 1950s, just as a good example, products were made in the USA, and built very well, to last years. The cost's of things were affordable. Employees were paid good wages for X amount of work, typically with a pension and medical, as well as paid vacations etc. The corporations and companies were still able to spin a profit and life was fairly grand. Flash forward to the present. Things are made in China, Mexico or just about anywhere but in the US. Things are made cheaply, to not last very long, and cost more money to buy, relative to the wages a person makes, these days. Companies no longer pay a pension, medical or vacations and pay a far cheaper wage in Maylasia today than a worker made in 1950s. The Chinese workers production, as we saw in Wolfs graph, is up, whether through technology, or automation. The companies make more profits than they did in the 1950s, and CEO pay is MUCH higher.....And yet these companies are still looking to boost profits! Lets see......What else....Oh yes, the credit cards. You know, I've heard every story imaginable........ Guys who made minimum wage and managed to buy a home (on credit) and work hard to fix it up, then sell it, and eventually buy a waterfront home on lake Tahoe for cash, while living on $30 a week for food and gas, all the while raising 6 kids, and the crap just keeps on flowing until the flies are in your mouth. The truth is.......in general, that kids starting out today, are faced with some harsh realities about reality! Being a retired engineer, or an executive of some firm, is in a totally different world than someone working at walmart, who has an emergency come up and low and behold, here's a credit card in the mail! It's really hard to make someone see it. I remember Ronald Reagan, on the news in the day, being STUNNED! I mean Stunned that there were hungry children in America. He just couldn't believe it. And then those "you know what holes" at the teaparty rally, with the Parkinsons dude in the wheel chair. Some people just cannot relate. About the quotes. I agree with them 100%. It's just that some in this country, who have it all, just keep wanting more and more. And in the end, it affects those on the bottom, and we're already seeing evidence of that.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:51 PM  
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...............Easy! Holster those guns.
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:14 PM  
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Ah, don't worry, the guns are unloaded. We can't afford the bullets anymore!
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:24 PM  
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
Ah, don't worry, the guns are unloaded. We can't afford the bullets anymore!
Well, Keith installed those metal detectors in here, but I wasn't sure if it was low budget like everything else in this place, including the cheesy fake video cameras that arent hooked up!
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:50 PM  
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No, I can assure you that the cameras do in fact work. As a matter of fact, please let your wife know the top she is wearing is a little provocative tonight!
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:24 AM  
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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
There's nothing wrong with socialism at all!........ You had just mentioned that I was anti profit. I'm not. ...............It's just that some in this country, who have it all, just keep wanting more and more. And in the end, it affects those on the bottom, and we're already seeing evidence of that.
I believe there is very much wrong with socialism.
I did not say you were against profits. I simply said you SOUNDED like you were anti profit.

Let me ask you, when you had your business, at what point did you just say "you know what, I make enough money. I can afford to sell my stuff much cheaper".... Or did you say "you know what, I make enough money, I think I can charge the same for my products and pay my employees more..."
Or was it neither one?

Look, you mention the '50s. The 50's are gone. Baby boomers have come.
the population is MUCH greater.
And as far as the products being made in the US... Well, people just like you and I want more for less. That means we buy stuff from china.
Oh, the more people, the more demand for products (even if they can't afford them!).

We can go 1 of two directions. One is to take from the haves and give to the have nots. Or, we can NOT subsidize the existance of those that cannot support themselves. By subsidizing their existance, we are encouraging those that cannot support themselves to have children (I AM AWARE IT SOUNDS VERY HARSH). Now, do you think that someone who cannot support themselves can support children? The cycle only gets worse if we continue in the direction we are going.

Oh, and if you think they are good quotes, then why is your stance contrary to them??
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:58 AM  
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Originally Posted by YelloJeep View Post
I believe there is very much wrong with socialism.
I did not say you were against profits. I simply said you SOUNDED like you were anti profit.

Let me ask you, when you had your business, at what point did you just say "you know what, I make enough money. I can afford to sell my stuff much cheaper".... Or did you say "you know what, I make enough money, I think I can charge the same for my products and pay my employees more..."
Or was it neither one?

Look, you mention the '50s. The 50's are gone. Baby boomers have come.
the population is MUCH greater.
And as far as the products being made in the US... Well, people just like you and I want more for less. That means we buy stuff from china.
Oh, the more people, the more demand for products (even if they can't afford them!).

We can go 1 of two directions. One is to take from the haves and give to the have nots. Or, we can NOT subsidize the existance of those that cannot support themselves. By subsidizing their existance, we are encouraging those that cannot support themselves to have children (I AM AWARE IT SOUNDS VERY HARSH). Now, do you think that someone who cannot support themselves can support children? The cycle only gets worse if we continue in the direction we are going.

Oh, and if you think they are good quotes, then why is your stance contrary to them??
Okay, symantics. I was just clarifying before there was a misconception. Indeed on the socialism! But there's very much wrong with capitalism too. The truth is, that on many levels, both are good, and both are bad. The distinction I was drawing upon with the 1950s anology, was an opinion, in that given the circumstances at that time, and the way business was conducted, everyone was doing okay. Whereas these days, CEO pay has grown tremendously in contrast to worker pay, and things like pensions have disappeared, so the companies can get even more money. Furthermore, hiring overseas labor, and putting people in this country, out of work or forcing them to take less paying jobs which is usually the case, amounts to economic terrorism. Essentially, you're taking from the poor and middle class, and someone is getting that redistribution of wealth at the top! Ben and Adrienes quotes don't address that aspect of things, because somehow, it's okay to do that! I so agree about the children. My best friend has several kids and can't even pay child support. They took his license, and now he hitch hikes every where he goes, so yes, people having kids when they can't even support themselves, gets my hackle feathers raised and this might well be the only thing we agree on! As regards the quotes, They are great indeed, and on the other hand I oppose them because there are equally as many quotes of truth about the wealthy and corporate America taking from the poor. I understand that the quotes refer to the government, but sometimes the government has to step in and make sure that the wealthy play fair, as often corporations financial institutions and insurance companies will revert to unethical practices as we've seen over and over and over and over and over and over again. So as regards the quotes, they are good, but very two way street indeed. Hey Mark..... I don't even see any wires coming out of those cameras. They look made in China!
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:26 AM  
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Originally Posted by Musicinabottle View Post
........ that on many levels, both are good, and both are bad.
That is true in that both have good and bad attributes. I would much rather have the "bad" aspects of capitalism than the "bad" aspects of socialism.
The bad of capitalism CAN be overcome by the will and initiative of the individual.
The bad of socialism cannot. (I would rather not get too far off topic by explaining)

Quote:
...... I so agree about the children. My best friend has several kids and can't even pay child support. They took his license, and now he hitch hikes every where he goes, so yes, people having kids when they can't even support themselves, gets my hackle feathers raised and this might well be the only thing we agree on!
Yeah, I think that is one of the BIGGEST problems in our country. Most of our problems stem from this. Not sure of a good solution (that wouldn't be seen as awful by someone)

Quote:
As regards the quotes, They are great indeed, and on the other hand I oppose them because there are equally as many quotes of truth about the wealthy and corporate America taking from the poor. I understand that the quotes refer to the government, but sometimes the government has to step in and make sure that the wealthy play fair, as often corporations financial institutions and insurance companies will revert to unethical practices as we've seen over and over and over and over and over and over again. So as regards the quotes, they are good, but very two way street indeed.
I do believe that corporations can (and have before) do some unethical things. So there does have to be some safeguards. I am afraid that people sometimes just see higher pay or success as unethical (if the ones working for that person aren't doing that great). Or byproducts of the American dream. As quoted:

James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement"

That basically means that you can come here and build yourself to the top.
Everyone cannot do it.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:47 PM  
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I was waiting with my finger on the trigger of a couple great points for this discussion, but we sort of reached some common ground and I've been driving all day today and I'm beat!
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