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Old 10-24-2010, 06:49 PM  
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Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
Cool deal,
The one that I don't agree with is how much importance they Cathlics put in Mary and the fathers (pastors). I don't know one part of the christian religion that says you have to go through another person to talk to God or ask for forgiveness.
That one has my scratching my head as well.........
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Old 10-24-2010, 06:58 PM  
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Catholics believe that Jesus ordained Peter as "the first pope", and that he is Jesus' emissary on earth. Everything else, including the corruption of the power, just kind of stemmed from there.

I don't agree with it at all- that's just how they believe what they believe.
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:29 PM  
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I guess this will be where we disagree then. If God needed you why hasn't he returned? Every day more and more people are born to families that don't believe. He created us but it (not that I know of) doesn't state why he did. If he needs you to believe then he wouldn't have killed the people that refused him. All he would have had to do is show himself. The same goes for today. If God came and all of a sudden millions of believers just disappeared the rest of the world would realize their error and everyone would be begging for forgiveness and doing anything to prove their love for him. But that?s not how it works. You need God. With out God there is no heaven, no salvation for us. God doesn?t have to worry about hell.

As humans go, I think the idea of God needing us is one of our worst mistakes.
Right up there with not believing.
You say he hasn't returned, and you represent the minority. Many people see the acts of God, ask them, they usually won't shut up about it. Your interpretation is not the interpretation of Six Billion people that believe in something.

God needs worship and reverence, that's why he always asking for it, but for the record the only thing that tells us he nerds it is his actions, and his manuscript.

You don't have to believe in things that exist, water for instance. You have to believe in things that don't exist, therefore showing himself and a mass return to worship would not be belief.

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Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
I think it?s easy to understand him. The main thing is to give your self to him completely. If you can do that he makes it pretty clear. As a whole, people have become too conceded. I think it?s foolish to think God needs us. He created us, and he?s killed us all at the same time with never batting an eye! Why would he need us? To night, look outside. Do you honestly think that we are the only beings that God has ever created? The bible was written how long ago? We pissed him off and he?s left us to fend for ourselves. Those who do good and believe will go home to him, those that don?t go to hell. To think we are his world is to me conceded.
But none of that is written into any sacred cannon, so in the absence of evidence, you are only left with assumption, and the text, and you know what they say about that.



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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
God is all things to all people. No one knows for sure whether God is male, female, part of the earth, sun, moon or all (or none) of the above. Jesus Christ is definitely male: his analog in Wicca would be the young God birthed by the Goddess (Mary) at Yule (Christmas). Note that judging by the manger scene; Jesus was born in the springtime, I suspect that his birthday was shifted to Winter Solstice/Yule to win over the ancient Pagan peoples.

Despite my Wiccan beliefs; I have no problem with moderate Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. Extremists of any faith including Pagans scare and offend me.

Side note here: I have no major issue with the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments since they are simply a code of ethics.
God can be all these things. That's sort of the awesome thing about being all powerful.

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Originally Posted by addie View Post
It sounds typical of the male ego to decide that god looks like a man.

God is close in shape to a man's body? That is implying that god has a physical form and according to the bible, god only took physical form when he came down as Jesus. Other times god spoke to people in the bible it was through the holy spirit. If you believe in the trinity, then god has three separate forms, which all gets very confusing and makes god seems like he's got multiple personalities. No wonder Judaism doesn't accept Jesus as god, they believe god is one not three.
Well he took physical form when he was talking through the burning bush, so it's equally fair to assume he's a bush.

The Text in genesis reads (from the KJ Genesis 1:27) So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So where people get the idea he is one or the other is based on teachings, and not literature.

The creation of Adam only comes in 2:7, after God has rested, but also after the initial creation, hence there are two creations. The first in his image, the second were we are made from dust and brought to life.

So it's totally dependent on which creation you think we are, the first or the second.
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Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
Umm, if I remember right God and Jesus are two different people. Jesus is Gods son. And the bible states god made man in his likeness. He made man first then woman for the mans companion.

So it's no ego, but written.
They are and they aren't, and not really, ^.



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Originally Posted by 78BO View Post
Cool deal,
The one that I don't agree with is how much importance they Cathlics put in Mary and the fathers (pastors). I don't know one part of the christian religion that says you have to go through another person to talk to God or ask for forgiveness.
You mean aside form Jesus right? Well, he sent his apostles out to hear confessions and heal, so, Jesus did.


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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
Catholics believe that Jesus ordained Peter as "the first pope", and that he is Jesus' emissary on earth. Everything else, including the corruption of the power, just kind of stemmed from there.

I don't agree with it at all- that's just how they believe what they believe.
And it's known as Apostolic Succession from that point forward. He also establishes Peter as the rock that would hold the church together.

Act 20 says "For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,'[b] and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.'[c] 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:53 PM  
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Do you really disagree that woman was made to be man's companion?


And the Catholic form of Succession is very arguable as to the interpretation of the scriptures - I suppose that's why there's Christianity and then there's Catholicism.
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Old 10-25-2010, 02:38 PM  
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Originally Posted by Jake7 View Post
Do you really disagree that woman was made to be man's companion?



Does the Bible? No that makes it pretty clear. God made man. Several days later God made man again (I guess he messed up, there are explanations, but none found in the Christian Cannon), then he knocked him out, took a rib , and formed Eve.

And the Catholic form of Succession is very arguable as to the interpretation of the scriptures - I suppose that's why there's Christianity and then there's Catholicism.
Do I? You betcha, but I'm a Atheist so that would make sense.


No that's why there's Catholicism and Protestantism, they are both Christianity.
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:34 PM  
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You're right - I apologize. I was just saying that their belief systems are different, not playing word games.

By "Christianity" I meant "Protestantism". I assumed that was pretty obvious.



Gen 1 and 2 are not to be read chronologically.

Genesis 2 is a detailed look at the 6th day recorded at the end of chapter one.

Chapter 1 is a poetic detailing of creation, while chapter two is a personal narrative about the creation of humanity.

The point is not to show two creations, but to show the importance of the culmination of creation, IE mankind.



It's a common misunderstanding, but literalists love to chew that up.
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:57 PM  
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I say he hasn't returned because he hasn't. Miracles are not the same thing as the coming of God. Hell I believe he's answered several of my prayers. But that doesn't mean he's come to Earth. Show me where the teachings state he has came for the second time?

I don't believe in things just because it's been taught, or I can touch it. I believe in God.
But I do so in a very easy and non conventional way. For example, watch a football game. Both teams pray so that they can come out the winner, yet one of them has to be the loser. God doesn't work that way. A father prays for God to heal his child but the child dies anyways. Does that mean God doesn't exist or does that mean the man, or the players aren't true believers? God give guidance not miracles. Jesus gave miracles but we didn't believe in him. He left and we haven't done enough for him to return.

As for god and what he looks like, yea he talked through a bush. I talk to my son through a phone, but I'm not any thing like a touch screen! I think it's pretty clean, God made man in his likeness. We don't have 4 legs, we don't have roots or leaves. This is one of those things I was trying to point out before. As a whole, too many people try to read between the lines, and that's what has screwed up this world. But that's just my opinion.

I'm not a cathlic so I will take your word on why people feel that they have to confess to other people. But I know who my God is. I know I have a personal relationship with him and I know he listens and I don't need anyone to translate for me.

The problem with your points of religion is you are always looking to discredit it. You can't see him because you don't believe in him. God doesn't show himself, or help those who don't believe. The constitution talks of separation of church and state. But the way I and others read it is that the state isn't supposed to tell the church what to do, not that the teaching of church can't be infused in the rules that govern the state. You have your opinions I have mine, if we can't agree then the responsible thing to do is respect each others opinion and agree to disagree.
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Old 10-25-2010, 10:35 PM  
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The constitution talks of separation of church and state. But the way I and others read it is that the state isn't supposed to tell the church what to do, not that the teaching of church can't be infused in the rules that govern the state. You have your opinions I have mine, if we can't agree then the responsible thing to do is respect each others opinion and agree to disagree.
The separation of church and state is to stop religious oppression. That is why we fled to America in the first place. You cannot base any laws directly on the teachings of a church- that is a direct violation of separating church and state.

And I hate the argument that our founding fathers were all Christian, because that is just not true. They understood the importance of the separation of church and state, in order to truly have freedom of religion.
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:44 AM  
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The separation of church and state is to stop religious oppression. That is why we fled to America in the first place. You cannot base any laws directly on the teachings of a church- that is a direct violation of separating church and state.

And I hate the argument that our founding fathers were all Christian, because that is just not true. They understood the importance of the separation of church and state, in order to truly have freedom of religion.
See a few pages back - we already weighed in on this issue. I would respond again, but I don't feel like typing all that again
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:04 PM  
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I studied (like I should have before I said it), and you are 100% correct that Genesis has not two creation stories, I concede that argument. I'm not trying to be a literalist, I do question the validity of the text though.
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