Mainstream media usually doesn't tell you...

[blucher]

The statistics you posted were of firearm deaths - not even homicides in general, certainly not violent crimes in general. Great, woot, some nations have incredibly low rates of firearm deaths. If the cause for such low rates is a lack of firearms in that country, and the average person in that country faces a significantly higher risk of becoming the victim of a violent crime,

that doesn't compute because nations that limit the possession of firearms usually have far lower rates of death by firearms. People trot out the Swiss who have everyone trained as a soldier but are wise enough to avoid wars.
Who else in Europe does anything like that? For my money Europeans in general and particularly the Swiss have learned and matured over centuries of needless bloodbaths. I sorta doubt the Swiss accept fruitcakes into their military too.
One doesn't require a firearm to live peacefully among civilized societies. The very term "civilized" infers you've grown past acting like a testosterone ridden teen.

"My response:
Quote:
I see where you're going now but you're defining a single citizen's responsibilities, not a group under any name.
In practice, "citizen" and "militiaman" are synonymous. The group I'm referring to is the group of citizens."

Lexington & Concord were militia. Could you give me a more recent example?


Edited to add:

The History of guns in the US is pretty straight forward. Guns conquered the Indians, the Brits, the odd Mexican war and the result was a successful (for us) Westward expansion.

That accomplished we tried to settle what we had obtained resulting in too many settlers ending up on boothill. We began disarming people in towns which then flourished. The towns grew very large and attracted the poor and often the least civilized elements of society.

People wisely practiced the first rule of defense which is avoidance and moved to the suburbs. Over time the suburbs became mini-cities themselves and the process began all over again.

Meth & crack were added to the concoction and nowhere was really that safe anymore. In the 50's a home invasion was almost unimaginable but today doesn't look like a Norman Rockwell painting either.

I don't fault anyone for wanting a way to keep their family safe. I trained more than a few myself in basic weapons use & handling. No law will ever disarm America as long as cosmoline is still for sale. I accept the reality but not the excuse that there is any politics involved or intended.

what is involved is simple survival. If someone has a problem they also have a vote. Lose that vote and we'll talk again but in our brief History as a nation we've managed oinly one rebellion of note. (We Irish think any whiskey rebellion deserves notice just for the record)

If any armed teabuggery types show up I think it's more a case of color than politics but hey!, that's just me. (be nice if they all wore surveyors symbols too)

[blucher]

Perhaps I am a tad confused. So, you have them but wouldn't use them for fear of having poor judgement? Or you and not others should have the weapons?

A tad is an understatement IMO. I watch old farts like me to monitor myself. So far just the usual short term memory issues but if it ever shows signs of worsening I will indeed compensate. I will admit I've seen a few folks so in denial they become a danger just driving a car.

I'm sure not shooting a .338 WinMag at burglars but I have a nice selection of tools that will keep any lead local.

[blucher]

...................

FLORIDA
2 shot dead, 22 wounded at Manatee County club

2 shot dead, 22 wounded at Manatee County club - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

BRADENTON HERALD

PALMETTO -- Gunmen shot two people to death and wounded 22 others in one of the worst shooting incidents in Manatee County history early Saturday.
At least two shooters opened fire about 12:30 a.m. on a crowd standing in front of Club Elite, 704 10th St. W.
One of the victims, Trayon Goff, 25, of Palmetto, was found dead outside the club?s front door. The other victim who was fatally shot, Gwenette Matthews, 38, of Bradenton, was found inside the club, according to the Palmetto Police Department.
Twenty-two other people were hit by gunfire during the attack. The six most seriously wounded were taken to Bayfront Medical Center in St. Petersburg. Another 16 persons were treated at Manatee Memorial Hospital.
Palmetto Chief Rick Wells said he believes this is most people ever wounded in a single Palmetto shooting incident.
?We are following some leads that came in and working on those,? Wells said. ?We are hoping we can get this thing resolved soon.?
Investigators from the Manatee County Sheriff?s Office were assisting with the case.
As of Saturday afternoon, one of those taken to Bayfront was listed as being in critical condition in the intensive care unit. Two others were listed in good condition, and three others had been discharged, said Margaret Ballou, administrator on duty at Bayfront.
Fifteen of the 16 people who were taken to Manatee Memorial Hospital had been discharged as of Saturday afternoon.
One person was still being treated at Manatee Memorial. A hospital spokesman declined to provide any other information about any of the patients.
Investigators were on the scene Saturday afternoon, where bullet holes riddled the building and several cars in the parking lot, collecting evidence and interviewing witnesses.
?We are pretty sure the shooting took place outside of the club,? said Lt. Scott Tyler of the Palmetto Police Department. ?We believe there were at least two shooters and we are aggressively working on some leads.?
Along with the shell casings, witness statements, and blood trails, investigators also collected a surveillance video from the club.
No description of the shooters had been released Saturday and it was unclear if the gunmen fired from a passing vehicle or walked up to the scene.
A shop owner, who did not want to be named, said she received a Palmetto Police Department call about 2 a.m., saying her building had been damaged in the shooting. When she arrived on scene, she discovered her glass door had been shattered by two bullets.
Another shop owner, who also declined to give his name, said his heart sank when he came into the parking lot in the morning to see it covered with crime tape.
During the course of their investigation, detectives found a suspicious package inside a dumpster. The Manatee County Sheriff?s Office bomb unit destroyed it. The package did not contain explosives and is not believed to be related to the shootings, according to Wells. A motive has not yet been determined in the case.
?We do believe most of the people shot were innocent victims,? Wells said.
Goff has a prior felony conviction of sale of cocaine, according to court documents.
Manatee Memorial Hospital went into lock-down mode with the arrival of so many patients at one time.
?We are proud of our staff,? Vernon DeSear said of how well emergency room workers handled the influx of gunshot victims, possibly the most at one time in the hospital?s history.
Club Elite was the scene of another shooting in December, when Palmetto police arrested a 28-year-old man after a shooting that left a man dead.
In the December shooting, Breon Mitchell, 23, of Bradenton, was found with a gunshot to his torso. He was lying in a car lot, according to authorities. He was taken to Bayfront Medical Center, where he died.
Tavarious China Smith sustained a gunshot wound to his arm and friends took him to Sarasota Memorial Hospital.
Smith was later arrested in connection with the December shooting. But murder charges were not filed against Smith because it was determined he acted in self-defense, according to the office of State Attorney Earl Moreland. More recently, A 21-year-old Palmetto woman was arrested in June after she fired a pistol into the ceiling of Club Elite, Palmetto police reported.
Anyone with information about the crime can call the Palmetto Police Department at (941) 723-4587 or Manatee County Crime Stoppers at (866) 634-8477.
Callers may remain anonymous and may be eligible for a reward.
Sara Kennedy also contributed to this report.

[rivalarrival]

Originally Posted by rivalarrival

Gun owners gotta be EXTREMELY careful with situations like that, for a few reasons.

First, on a personal level: There ARE people who are required to break into buildings as part of their legal, routine business. I'm one of them. It's also why I wear an ID card around my neck and carry openly. DON'T make assumptions. If there is any doubt, call the police. If someone walks up to me with a gun while I'm going about my business, tensions are going to be high, and that person will be an armed trespassing on private property under my armed control and authority. If there is any doubt to be had about the subsequent interaction, it will be to MY benefit, no matter how honorable your intentions. And someone less-honorable than me will have you charged for your efforts. (Me, I'll just explain myself to you and to the police if you call them, no harm no foul. Unless you're a jerk. )

Damn, I think I'm a prophet.

Last night, I came 12 inches from shooting some idiot hell-bent on being a vigilante hero.

I call the local police department, informing them that I am working late, and will be entering a vacant building. I give them the address.

I arrived at the property a little after 9pm. I parked conspicuously, leaving my running lamps on, and approached loudly and well-illuminated with my 230-lumen flashlight. I walked throughout the second floor, flashing photos in every room.
Idiot decides to take matters into his own hands, instead of calling the police to handle the problem (#0). I walked into the basement, when I heard a door open and close. (#1) I called out that I was the agent for this property, and that whoever was upstairs was trespassing. I heard footsteps in the house, sounded like they were coming further in. I put on my polite, assertive voice, repeated that he was trespassing, ordered him to leave. I heard nothing (#2); I knew he was waiting. I ordered him to identify himself, and I heard "Police" (#3). I repeated my statement, that I was a real estate agent, that I was on the property legally, and that I was coming upstairs. I asked him to identify himself again, and again he stated "Police". I waited at the top of the stairs for instructions or a uniform to come around the corner. I hear footsteps coming closer. A man steps into the doorway. Unless the local police department issues boxer shorts and flipflops, he's not a uniformed officer. He starts yelling that he's protecting the neighborhood from scumbags like me, that he's called the cops and they are on the way (#4). I repeatedly tell him I'm the agent for the property, he's trespassing on the property, he is not the owner. I tell him I would be happy to wait for the police to show up, but that he must leave the property immediately. He walks closer to me (#5) I stop being polite with the flashlight and start shining it in his eyes. I grasp my pistol, pull it above the restraint in my Serpa holster (but keep it in the holster) I inform him I am armed. He tells me to shoot him! (#6) He's well within the engagement zone, my back is against the wall, and idiot isn't backing down. I keep repeating "You are trespassing, I'm authorized to be here". He stopped about a foot before the line I gave him and calmed down a bit. I told him I had identification, pulled it from my neck with my flashlight hand, and tossed it to him. My work ID is on the front, my CCW permit is on the back. He finally got it into his thick head that he was about to be shot for trespassing and assault and backed down.

He DID NOT call the police before coming over. He had a cell phone, but he was not talking to the cops. Had he actually spoken to the cops, he would have learned that I was supposed to be there, and the dispatcher or 911 operator would have told him to stay away from the property and wait for the cops to arrive.


There is a reason why an armed society is a polite society. I believe that unarmed people are a bigger menace than the relatively few armed people who misuse firearms. Unarmed people are often willing to escalate situations like this because they think in terms of fistfights and black eyes instead of deadly force. A gun in his hand - or, more correctly, the training that should go along with that gun - would have kept him out of the house to begin with.

[blucher]

complete fool, pity you couldn't have shot him anyway.

I believe that unarmed people are a bigger menace than the relatively few armed people who misuse firearms. Unarmed people are often willing to escalate situations like this because they think in terms of fistfights and black eyes instead of deadly force.

I find kids are fine with fists but grown men who were never in a fight may be the biggest danger because they often get a gun to avoid the punch. In this case the last thing I'd have wanted was Mr. Flipflops to be carrying heat.