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Old 01-23-2011, 11:25 AM  
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Rochester, New York
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Originally Posted by Hudsoner View Post
The free market has not functioned at all over the last decades, why should anybody believe it would function now?
This myth -- this abject lie -- is what we will see more of. Blame free-market capitalism for what meddling, tiny-minded bureaucrats have wrought. Precious few of us have enjoyed free-market capitalism in our lifetimes. It doesn't exist in this country anymore. I suggest we give it a try. You suggest we do more of what brought about the problem.

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Originally Posted by Hudsoner View Post
And Brian seems not to have a great knowledge about Europe, when he claims that European fiscal problems are do to government control of services. Well the government does not have control over services, it just regulates some of them (as does the US).
Oh by all means, please inform us what "austerity measures" means if it doesn't pertain to cutbacks to folks on the dole in Europe. That's exactly what it means. And that's exactly what we're going to experience in this country soon. Over 40% of Americans get hand-outs in one form or another. That's disgraceful.

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Originally Posted by Hudsoner View Post
But enough of that. It seems that some people here have more empathy for every penny in their pocket book than for the suffering of their fellow citizens. But many of them call themselves patriots!
I take pride in what I make and what I earn. I understand the fruits of my labor belong to me. If you want to call that heartless greed, that's fine. It fits in well with your blatant mischaracterization of "free-market" above.

What you are ignorant of -- and will remain ignorant of because I don't share this information -- is what I choose to give others. Unlike you, I don't abdicate my responsibility to help those in need by passing the buck (literally and figuratively) to the government.

As a patriot, I believe in American exceptionalism. Not because Americans are a race apart from other people, but because our laws ensured our freedom and liberty. You're working to take that away, bit by bit. I believe that rugged individualism and individuals taking responsibility for themselves is what makes a society strong. Conversely, individuals who look to the society to keep them strong make a weak society that inevitably collapses.
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:58 AM  
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Bristol, Tennessee
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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
This myth -- this abject lie -- is what we will see more of. Blame free-market capitalism for what meddling, tiny-minded bureaucrats have wrought. Precious few of us have enjoyed free-market capitalism in our lifetimes. It doesn't exist in this country anymore. I suggest we give it a try. You suggest we do more of what brought about the problem.
we did have it at one point in time, and there is a reason we regulated it in the first place, the big problem being that we only regulated it for employer based plans, but in the past employer based plans that had a LOT more "Free market" ability were excluding pre-existings and the bunch and that was fixed by legislation, sadly individual plans were not. But again we had free market insurance before, it didn't work, should we try prohibition again? see if it works this time? surely it's a bigger problem now with more people driving drunk and higher speeds then cars could go back then, right? There are some things that have been proven not to work, there is a reason practically EVERY developed country has moved away from our system to a more regulated system, health care is too important/too complex and does not have any alternatives like other insurance types do.
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Oh by all means, please inform us what "austerity measures" means if it doesn't pertain to cutbacks to folks on the dole in Europe. That's exactly what it means. And that's exactly what we're going to experience in this country soon. Over 40% of Americans get hand-outs in one form or another. That's disgraceful.
don't forget the corporations that get "handouts" just the same, they just go by different names


I take pride in what I make and what I earn. I understand the fruits of my labor belong to me. If you want to call that heartless greed, that's fine. It fits in well with your blatant mischaracterization of "free-market" above.

What you are ignorant of -- and will remain ignorant of because I don't share this information -- is what I choose to give others. Unlike you, I don't abdicate my responsibility to help those in need by passing the buck (literally and figuratively) to the government.

As a patriot, I believe in American exceptionalism. Not because Americans are a race apart from other people, but because our laws ensured our freedom and liberty. You're working to take that away, bit by bit. I believe that rugged individualism and individuals taking responsibility for themselves is what makes a society strong. Conversely, individuals who look to the society to keep them strong make a weak society that inevitably collapses.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:17 PM  
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Rochester, New York
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Originally Posted by RedJeepXJ View Post
don't forget the corporations that get "handouts" just the same, they just go by different names
Corporate welfare, cronyism, corporatism, and neo-fascism is every bit as evil as handouts to individuals.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:20 PM  
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brigham city, utah
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In response to the original post I have a couple questions....

First what qualifications do you have to get a better job? You said that you have tried to get better jobs but you have no luck. There are plenty of vocational schools or technical colleges around that can teach you to do more then cook, why have you not taken up the government benefits already made available to you like pell grants and such and better yourself rather then complain about benefits that you dont even have yet.

Of course the question I have to ask myself is how does taking money from me or RedJeepXJ or Brian or anyone else to cover the extra cost of the health insurance really help you? My insurance has increased 26% across the board and its going to continue to go up because of this stupid bill... But in the same respect If I break my arm I am also out of work, I have to go on medical leave, I have to apply for food stamps... how is that any different then you?

Are you just staying in one spot in life or are you trying to better yourself and take every advantage you can get?
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:57 PM  
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Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by markso125 View Post
My insurance has increased 26% across the board and its going to continue to go up because of this stupid bill...
Are you sure about that? Even though the bill has not caused any increase in cost for the system? I believe what you see is an extra profit taking of the insurance industry to get the prices up before the bill will stop this.

Bye the way, my health insurance cost increased every year since I have my own insurance!

But you guys go ahead and believe in the rhetoric of the insurance industry and Fox News. Just make sure that you don't try to find out about the reality, because this could hurt!

Many lies were told aboiut the bad Health Care Bill, and most did not hold up to checking. Here is another example of the lies that we were told!
Quote:
A ?Job-Killing? Law?
House Republicans misrepresent the facts. Experts predict the health care law will have little effect on employment.


Summary

When it comes to truth in labeling, House Republicans are getting off to a poor start with their constantly repeated references to the new health care law as "job-killing."

We find:

* Independent, nonpartisan experts project only a "small" or "minimal" impact on jobs, even before taking likely job gains in the health care and insurance industries into account.
* The House Republican leadership, in a report issued Jan. 6, badly misrepresents what the Congressional Budget Office has said about the law. In fact, CBO is among those saying the effect "will probably be small."
* The GOP also cites a study projecting a 1.6 million job loss ? but fails to mention that the study refers to a hypothetical employer mandate that is not part of the new law.
* The same study cited by the GOP also predicts an offsetting gain of 890,000 jobs in hospitals, doctors? offices and insurance companies ? a factor not mentioned by the House leadership.



Quelle: A ‘Job-Killing’ Law? | FactCheck.org
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:07 PM  
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Bristol, Tennessee
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Originally Posted by Hudsoner View Post
Are you sure about that? Even though the bill has not caused any increase in cost for the system? I believe what you see is an extra profit taking of the insurance industry to get the prices up before the bill will stop this.

Bye the way, my health insurance cost increased every year since I have my own insurance!

But you guys go ahead and believe in the rhetoric of the insurance industry and Fox News. Just make sure that you don't try to find out about the reality, because this could hurt!

Many lies were told aboiut the bad Health Care Bill, and most did not hold up to checking. Here is another example of the lies that we were told!
agree, nothing done thus far would have any influence on health plans EXCEPT if you have children on it and decided to have them on it till an older age and some increase in children's individual policies due to not being able to exclude based on pre existing conditions. but company based plans it is just profit taking as they know once the plan goes fully into effect they will have to spend so much on care so they are raising it now to make more money and turn more people against the law.

Some people with employer based plans may be seeing an increase from this as the employer may be paying less both because the economy is bad to reduce expenses and it is a convenient time to do so and pass the blame.

On jeepforum one guy was trying to argue that the company owner dropped health insurance because of obamacare it was cheaper to pay the fine. when if there was any incentive to have healthcare before there is moreso for a company in the near future (to my knowledge none of the fines on businesses have even started yet anyways) All sides are trying to pick whatever they want to blame on obamacare and usually laughing all the way to the bank with their easy scapegoat

That being said I am single and my insurance policy dropped last year (granted yes it's an employer based plan so I can't see the true costs of it) but it dropped to a mere $28 month (haven't received this years to see if it stays the same)

once everyone is paying in AND the insurance companies must spend at least 70% on care I would expect there to be some price corrections where the price on plans drop a lot.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:16 PM  
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I don't know what side of the fence I should stand. I spend $950 a month for heathcare. I can't afford this, but again, if something happened, I couldn't afford not to have it....Unless I was like the millions of undocumented, or whatever they like to call themselves in this PC world...Someone has to pay! If all were forced, maybe my same insurance would be $200 a month?
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:12 PM  
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Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
I don't know what side of the fence I should stand. I spend $950 a month for heathcare. I can't afford this, but again, if something happened, I couldn't afford not to have it....Unless I was like the millions of undocumented, or whatever they like to call themselves in this PC world...Someone has to pay! If all were forced, maybe my same insurance would be $200 a month?
It's just the fact of insurances. If everybody pays something, everybody pays less. That was the whole idea of the reform! People like you will be able to afford health insurance.

It was not done for people in my income bracket/profession, we will actually be the loosens (to some extend). There is no reason that I need a reform of the current system, I can't loose insurance and I will be able to pay for it, now and in the future, because I have a insurance very similar to the one, the senators have.

But I, and a lot of my peers, are willing to give a little up so everybody can have at least basic benefits! What good is the American Dream if over 50 million of our fellow citizens cannot partake in it, because they are sick and they cannot get medical help for it?
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:28 PM  
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But I guess the big question is: Until some reform is implemented, why should I pay when my neighbor doesn't have to? We still both get the same treatment, don't we? This is a very slippery slope.
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:47 PM  
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Bristol, Tennessee
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Originally Posted by havasu View Post
But I guess the big question is: Until some reform is implemented, why should I pay when my neighbor doesn't have to? We still both get the same treatment, don't we? This is a very slippery slope.
no one is making you pay more except the insurance companies right now, you are still free not to buy it as long as they don't, once it is implemented in a few years then everyone pays in and the price will hopefully drop.

I'm not seeing your point, you can opt out of paying now and hope that the hospital writes it off instead of collecting on it.....

being insured and uninsured will vary in treatments, for emergency need it now treatment it will be similar, for optional or non immediate need (cancer) treatments the uninsured will suffer
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